AMY GOODMAN: You are listening to Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now!, Resistance Radio.

PROTESTERS: We demand the immediate release of all held without charges! We also demand a public apology for the violent actions taken against a nonviolent action! Shut down the WTO!

AMY GOODMAN: And we are covering the Battle in Seattle live. I’m Amy Goodman, here with Juan González and a number of guests around the table who have actually just come from the Seattle jail, where thousands gathered yesterday demanding the release of hundreds of detained activists who remain inside and remain even as we speak. John Sellers is with us, as well as Shannon Wright.

You’ve just come from the jail. What is happening there at this point? John Sellers is one of the founders of Ruckus, which is a direct action, nonviolent organization that trains thousands of activists from around the world, many who displayed their skills this week in Seattle. John?

JOHN SELLERS: Well, we just came from the jailhouse, where some of the prisoners are now being released. Eight what’s being called WTO Jane Does have been released this morning. Since there are over 500 prisoners, 500 activists have been taken prisoner, they’re starting to be released without having any charges, because they jammed the system so profoundly that they were unable to be processed through, all of them. So, we did see eight women being released this morning.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined by Shannon Wright, who is one of the people who have been arrested this week. Shannon, can you describe what it is you did?

SHANNON WRIGHT: I have been arrested twice this week, actually, first time with John, as well, during a banner hang against the WTO on Monday, in the first part of the week. Two days ago, I was swept off the street by plainclothes police officers, tackled from behind blocks away from any sort of police barricade, much like other people I met inside of jail, and then was eventually released out on bail about 20 hours later.

AMY GOODMAN: What did your banner say?

SHANNON WRIGHT: Our banner had — it was wonderful, two one-way signs. One way said ”WTO,” and the other way, pointing in the opposite direction, said “Democracy.”

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I think that one made it on national television, if I’m not mistaken.

SHANNON WRIGHT: Yeah, it actually did make it on national television. That was wonderful.

AMY GOODMAN: Another of the signs held by the activists outside the jail yesterday said “Free the Seattle 500! Jail the Fortune 500!”

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And when they did process you in both arrests, did that go quickly compared to what’s been happening with these folks?

SHANNON WRIGHT: In terms of the first arrest, it was before the large protests, and so we were processed very quickly. I think it was a very different scenario than what you’re seeing now. I’m somewhat of a different case in terms of the arrests two days ago, because I had my identification on me. I was staying away from the protests to — specifically to provide jail support. So, they knew who I was. I was not a Jane WTO, and I was processed in a different manner. What I did notice inside, however, was that there was a complete logjam. People were left on buses for 14 hours. Others were left out at the naval site for extended periods, because they simply did not have the space to process everyone downtown.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to talk about these nonviolent protests. They’re quite remarkable, to say the least, very creative. One of the first things that Jeremy Scahill and I did, a reporter for Democracy Now!, when we got here last Saturday was go out to one of the first direct actions, where two young women, like you, Shannon, rappelled down from the Seattle road onto the highway, though they didn’t quite get down to the highway, so that the state troopers couldn’t grab them, and they also unfurled a banner and were arrested. John Sellers, you’ve been training thousands of activists over the years with this group, Ruckus. Can you tell us a little about it?

JOHN SELLERS: Well, yeah, Ruckus is a tactical clearinghouse for the movement. We train activists from human rights, fair trade, environmental organizations, labor organizations, to take nonviolent direct action and to do it in very creative and compelling ways which are going to engage the global public. And we were actually very honored to work with those two women in the scenario that they were working on and and to give them some of the technical training they needed to do that action safely and to think about the message on their banner with them and make sure that it was going to really connect with people and speak on a meta level to the WTO and the injustice that it represents.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Some of the actions that those demonstrators, those individual demonstrators, take are physically very taxing and very dangerous. I mean, do you have a library or catalog of stunts that can be pulled out of — pulled out of the hat in particular situations, or is it just that you basically train them in principles and procedures of ways to do things?

JOHN SELLERS: Well, what we actually do is something called an action camp. And we had our very first advanced action camp around the WTO. It was called “Globalize This!” with an exclamation point. And we had about 200 participants of that camp. The camps have — they’re kind of broken up. The curriculum is broken up between real physical training in things like urban climbing techniques and technical tree climbing and blockades and political theater, puppet making, things like that. We also have a lot of work — you know, the very first workshop that folks go through is a very traditional nonviolence training. Then they go on through media training, campaign strategy, online activism, action imagery. So, there’s a tremendous amount of ways that people can plug in. We’re not — we don’t have any illusions that we’re creating thousands and thousands of technical action climbers. But we are giving people the skills that they can take with them and use their gifts, you know, to support the movement and push things.

AMY GOODMAN: Where are these camps?

JOHN SELLERS: Well, we’ve done about 15 of the camps around North America, three in Canada. The rest have been in the United States. And they’re free to participants. And the next camp that we’ll be doing will be in Florida for Tibetan activists in January, and then we have a camp coming up in March for student activists in Florida.

AMY GOODMAN: And how do people live in these camps? How long do they last?

JOHN SELLERS: The camps are four to six days, and people literally camp. We bring in a field kitchen. We can go into a fairly pristine area and leave a very minimal footprint.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to John Sellers, who’s the founder of Ruckus.

JOHN SELLERS: I’m actually not the founder of Ruckus. I’m the director of Ruckus. Ruckus was founded by a fellow named Mike Roselle, who is also the co-founder of Earth First and one of the co-founders of the Rainforest Action Network.

AMY GOODMAN: Also Shannon Wright, who — are you a graduate of one of the camps?

SHANNON WRIGHT: I am. I’ve been through two of the camps and work with the Rainforest Action Network.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re also joined by people who have been dealing with — people who have been involved in civil disobedience and treated, at various levels of harshness, by the police, the National Guard, state troopers. We’re joined by a paramedic who’s actually from Physicians for Social Responsibility, who’s been out on the streets over the last four days. He is Kirk Murphy, chair of the L.A. chapter of the Environmental Committee of PSR, and has been working here. What have you found? How have these direct action protesters been dealt with?

DR. KIRK MURPHY: They’ve been dealt with extremely harshly. Just a brief correction: I wish I were a paramedic, because a paramedic’s skills would have been more helpful than my skills as a medical doctor in the field. We didn’t see any paramedics over the days of the protest. What we did see was clouds of tear gas being directed into crowded urban areas of people who were both protesters and people who were passersby. We saw people in wheelchairs get tear-gassed and clubbed with batons. We saw elderly women who had wounds to their head and face from concussion grenades. We saw people who were disoriented and showing signs of neurologic injury from agents that were not pepper spray and were not tear gas. And we saw many, many people with injuries from rubber bullets and police brutality and beatings.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Kirk, I’d like to ask you about these rubber bullets, because I have spent — over the last 30 years I have attended or covered as a newspaper reporter many, many civil disturbances in the United States, and I don’t recall a police department using rubber bullets against people in the United States. And could you talk about some of the impact of this on the demonstrators?

DR. KIRK MURPHY: The physical impact was substantial, although, to the demonstrators’ credit, many of them stayed in their position and held the streets despite being subjected to barrages of tear gas, rubber bullets and pepper spray in succession. The physical injuries we saw included severe injuries to the orbit, the socket right around the eye, broken teeth, wounds to the head and face. It’s very evident that the force from these projectiles, if they hit someone in the throat, the voice box, would be enough to cause a lethal damage to their voice box, and hence cause their death.

AMY GOODMAN: You know, I dealt with tear gas on the West Bank. We know what happens with Israeli soldiers and Palestinian protesters. And that is when they started to talk about the U.S. companies that make tear gas. And on the label, that you’re not going to see in a protest when the police are hurling these tear gas concussion grenades, it says, “Do not” — you know, that people should not be directly exposed. Also, they should not be sent into any kind of enclosed space. And when you have thousands of protesters and it falls into a space and someone is caught in that, it becomes an enclosed space. What are — are there permanent effects? I know in Israel, a number of Palestinian protesters died when these grenades were thrown into people’s homes.

DR. KIRK MURPHY: Both I and my colleague here from our MASHH clinic have seen numerous people who have ended up with a severe exacerbation of their asthma, their chronic respiratory disease.

AMY GOODMAN: Greta de la Montagne is with us. She is with a MASHH clinic, Medicine for Activists Seeking Health and Healing. Tear gas and pepper spray, the effects of the pepper spray, can they be long term? Because we watched as police would actually put it up to people’s faces and squirt.

GRETA DE LA MONTAGNE: Yeah, we haven’t seen enough pepper spray cases causing severe anaphylactic shock, but a lot of people are having really difficulty breathing, and everyone feels like they have footballs in their throat. Their glands are severely swollen. The pepper spray seems to be causing long-term irritation to the eyes, things like that.

DR. KIRK MURPHY: And on a long-term basis, no less an authority on human casualties than the United States Army lists pepper spray as a potential mutagen. Pepper spray is carried in an oily vehicle which contains many dangerous solvents and hydrocarbons. When tear gas is produced from canisters, it’s accompanied by numerous carcinogens, including xylene and toluene, which are highly toxic mutagens and carcinogens.

AMY GOODMAN: You know, one of the things, Juan, that we’ve been talking about this week is that it’s not only the protesters who inevitably — who may lead to the demise of the World Trade Organization. The use of this tear gas and the rubber bullets may lead to the demise of a Democratic administration here in Seattle, Washington, the mayor, the police commissioner.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Oh, absolutely. The mayor is gone. I don’t think — I don’t think this mayor will be reelected. I think the police commissioner is on his way out. On the morning news, I heard there was already battles between the sheriff and the police commissioner over who’s responsible. So, there will be repercussions in the city of Seattle for years to come.

But I’m interested in asking John, because, obviously, across America, many of the corporate media have focused on the small amount of violence that did occur. And in fact, you’ve had exposés already on two national news shows of the anarchist group that has claimed responsibility for some of the vandalism that went on on Tuesday. But the reality is that had the many young people who participated in what — I have to tell you, those demonstrators are like — they’re like the Energizer bunny. They just keep going and going and going. But I’d like to — the reality is that had those disruptions not occurred, the focus of world attention on the WTO would not have happened. And I’d like to ask you what your assessment is, as we’re winding down now this week, of the impact of what you and others who were out there in the streets have done, and why you felt, again, you had to do it.

JOHN SELLERS: Well, I think that the people of conscience who came to throw their bodies nonviolently into the gears — into the gears of — excuse my voice. I’ve been screaming quite a lot this week. The people that came to throw themselves into the gears of corporate power represented by the WTO had a profound effect here in Seattle. I believe that the WTO is making a giant sucking noise right now as it swirls down the drain. I think that it’s an institution that will be lost and gone in a few years, if not sooner than that. And I think it’s a result of civil society literally putting themselves on the line.

And I think that, you know, walking around outside the convention center when it was literally shut down, when there was no — when there were no delegates getting in there, was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. And it was an incredibly positive protest. When that protest started, there were actually smiles on both sides of the line. It was a celebratory protest, and it was very forward-looking. It was offering a powerful critique of capital, but it was also celebrating a new social movement and a new convergence of so many people of conscience and their single issues into a meta campaign. And that was a very powerful thing.

AMY GOODMAN: And, Shannon Wright, where are you going from here?

SHANNON WRIGHT: Well, in the next couple days, we’ll be returning back to the Bay Area. But I think that the long, long-term impact, it’s really a turning of the tide. I think we all feel that the WTO was — a few days back, was an innocuous, strange acronym for most people. And really, we’ve seen that the protesters and the other great support work that has been done has really exposed the truly undemocratic nature of this institution.

AMY GOODMAN: If people want to get in touch with Ruckus, where can they call?

JOHN SELLERS: Our website is www.ruckus.org.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you all for being with us, John Sellers, Shannon Wright, as well as Kirk Murphy and Greta de la Montagne. That does it for today’s program. And so many people to thank for this week in Seattle. We’ll be continuing to broadcast debate and discussion on globalization next week. We’ll have a debate with Ralph Nader, Vandana Shiva and Procter & Gamble — that’s on Monday — and all sorts of programs for the rest of the week. To obtain a copy of today’s show, you can call 1-800-735-0230. Democracy Now! is produced by our intrepid team, María Carrión and David Love, Jeremy Scahill, our reporter on the street, our engineers Errol Maitland and Mark Torres. Our webmeister for our new website, www.democracynow.org, is Chris Agee. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González, for another edition of Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now!