AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. Democracy Now!, of course, is Pacifica Radio’s national daily grassroots election show. Coming up in a little while, Larry Bensky will be interviewing E.J. Dionne, and he’ll be talking about progressives coming back into politics, into power in politics. Right now we’re going to go back in history and also look ahead. Tomorrow, there are primaries in four states. Those primaries take place in Michigan, Illinois, Ohio and Wisconsin. And we’re going to look at Ohio today.

But first, more than half a century ago, Upton Sinclair, the man who wrote The Jungle, exposing the working conditions of the meat packers in Chicago, ran for governor of California. His campaign was quite radical, against the moneyed elite that forced people to work in these kind of squalid conditions he often wrote about. He was ahead in the polls until Hollywood took him on, in what was unprecedented until then. They poured money into his opponent’s campaign, and Sinclair was narrowly defeated.

That story comes to mind when you look at Cleveland, Ohio, in the late 1970s. The youngest mayor in the country, Dennis Kucinich, took on the business establishment of Cleveland, refusing to let a power company be taken over by another power company. The bank set out to destroy him. They eventually forced the city into bankruptcy, and Kucinich was voted out. He’s run for a number of offices since then, for attorney general, for governor, and now he is running for Congress. He became a state senator in 1994. He’s now favored in the polls to win tomorrow’s Democratic primary for Congress.

Welcome to Democracy Now!, Dennis Kucinich.

DENNIS KUCINICH: Hi.

AMY GOODMAN: Did I give a pretty accurate rendition of what happened to you?

DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, it’s good to be on your show. And, you know, there’s a lot of stories about what happened in Cleveland. But right now I can say that I’m enjoying tremendous support from the city of Cleveland, because a few years ago I took a stand to save our publicly owned electric system, and there are tens of thousands of Clevelanders who are enjoying lower electric rates as a result of the decision I made in 1978 to keep Muni Light.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what happened there? Because, certainly today, while it’s 1996, we see this kind of issue, the privatization of public utilities, public enterprises, like hospitals. We see this threat all over the country. How did you take on the establishment?

DENNIS KUCINICH: “Privatization” is a genteel term that is used to mask a much more fundamental struggle between public interest and private interest. In the city of Cleveland, it came down to this. On December 15, 1978, I was given a choice by the city’s lead bank that I would either sell our city’s municipally owned electric system to the privately owned electric system, in which the bank had a major financial interest, or the bank would refuse to renew the city’s credit on loans, that amounted to $15 million from all banks, and this one bank, in particular, $5 million. I had to make a choice as to whether or not the long-term interests of the people of Cleveland were to be served by keeping a publicly owned power system, or whether the city would more or less cave in to the bank’s demand.

So I chose to save our municipal electric system, and the banks refused to renew the city’s credit. The city went into default. And it took about 15 years for people to understand in the Cleveland area that I made a choice that was important for the long-term economic position of the people of Cleveland, as well as our manufacturing economy here. And today I have a lot of support in Cleveland, enough that I was elected to the state Senate in a landslide in 1994, while all the other Democrats were going down, and I was the only Democrat in the whole state of Ohio who beat an incumbent Republican. And I have a lot of support in Cleveland and in the suburbs, and this congressional race looks very promising.

AMY GOODMAN: It’s interesting, the landscape today and how it relates to back then. Wasn’t George Voinovich, who is currently Ohio’s governor, one of your major opponents in 1978? In fact, he ended up beating you for mayor right after the city went into bankruptcy.

DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, you know, Governor Voinovich certainly has been able to get a lot of support from the business community. But I think what’s happened is that there’s different — there’s a different ethic today that is emerging, just as I think I was — my term as mayor saw the beginning of a kind of naked aggression on the part of major corporations against democratically elected governments. We also are seeing today an emerging corporate responsibility, where corporations are becoming a little bit more mindful of their role in creating the wealth of society and how they affect community employment and social structures, as well as the environment.

So, what I think is happening is that there’s — almost in the manner of the things that Paul Hawken has written, there’s a sense of a long-term self-interest of corporations to invest in their employees and invest in host communities and to protect natural resources. So I think we’re seeing a consciousness changing. It hasn’t happened yet, but I think the preconditions are there to see a change and transformation of social structures, if we can affect the way that corporations begin to look at their role in society. And I think, in some small way, I was able to play a part in challenging the fundamental premises on which the city was operating in the mid-’70s. And today, people are benefiting from that.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Dennis Kucinich. He is, at least according to the polls, the front-runner in the Democratic primary in the Cleveland area for Congress. He was called the “boy mayor” and “boy wonder” at 31, the youngest mayor in the country, and now again running for Congress. What did you do in the last two years as state senator? What were the issues you championed?

DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, I’ve worked on a number of issues relating to healthcare. I’ve been instrumental in getting the state Senate to look at the effect of the insurance industry as they move into health maintenance organizations using the Medicare or Medicaid dollars. We’ve been investigating that in Ohio and raised some real serious concerns as to whether or not the people of the state are being well served by HMO Medicaid programs which seem to distance them from the service, preclude their specialized care. Doctors aren’t getting paid. There’s a lot of problems with the program, and I’ve been instrumental in helping to raise a higher standard for performance.

The other area is in the environment. I’m considered one of the leading environmentalists in the state. I’ve worked very hard to try to keep Ohio from becoming the site for a low-level radioactive waste dump, and we’re still working on that issue here, as well as challenging the ethic which says that the corporate sector should not be held accountable on environmental quality standards. We’ve fought back and still fighting to stop an environmental audit program which would basically knock out all monitoring by the Ohio EPA and put the major polluters on an honor system here, which is, you know, dubious.

AMY GOODMAN: In fact, that’s a program that’s — it’s a kind of legislation that’s been passed in a number of states. I just came this weekend from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where more than 500 environmental activists gathered to talk about dioxin. And one of the things they talked about was that environmental — what’s called an environmental audit, where the corporations would themselves sort of secretly say what it is they’re doing, and then they don’t have to reveal things to the public.

DENNIS KUCINICH: Right, that — well, we’re challenging that in Ohio. And again, I believe that that there is an ethic which is evolving and a consciousness which can change with respect to corporations, because they do have the power to change our society for the better. But they have to do it, I believe, through providing secure and meaningful employment, through application of efficiency, through development of technology, and through socially and environmentally protective uses of — productive uses of capital.

The other area that I worked in relates to upholding the rights of working people. I’m the only member of the Ohio Senate with a 100% labor voting record. I’m very proud of it, because it speaks to what I think are basic moral issues. It’s a moral issue of whether or not people are working, and I say people have a right to a job. It’s a moral issue whether or not the workplace is safe, and I say people have a right to a safe workplace. It’s a moral issue as to whether or not people have a right to join a union and be represented, and I say people have a right to organize and a right to strike. And all of these things and more have to do with the rights of working people. And I’m very active in standing up and speaking out on behalf of the rights of working families.

AMY GOODMAN: What does this mean about your corporate support?

DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, I have support across the board. And, you know, I see that corporations can work with government in a cooperative partnership to improve education and the environment and the workplace and to improve communities in which corporations do business. There has to be a sense of community here. There has to be a willingness to uphold common values and to have shared objectives. And, you know, I don’t — I think that if this country is to survive as a democratic nation, then we have to see that our institutions, which help to create the wealth, are also upholding democratic values. And, you know, we’ve strayed from that, certainly in the last few decades.

But what I hope to do as a member of Congress is to try to bring some balancing factors into it and to make sure that there’s more democracy in the workplace and to make sure that there is more democracy in corporate practices. And so, you know, certainly I have the experience, going back into the mid-'70s, as to what happens when the corporations are not practicing democratic values. But I also think that, again, I want to say that I believe there's a change in the consciousness in this country with respect to people who are involved in corporate activity. And I’m hopeful that in this dialog, which we call a campaign, we’re going to be able to measure that activity in terms of overall contribution to the social and economic health of the community. And I’m certainly going to be someone who looks forward to working with business from the standpoint of benefiting and profiting the people I serve.

We certainly understand, though, that, you know, a lot of transnational corporations are liquidating millions of jobs in this country, and the wealth is being accelerated upward, and that people are — while they’re losing their jobs, we’re also seeing trying to — if they try to get back into the workplace, then not a lot of them are being successful. And these are major economic concerns, and that’s why I’m hoping to go to Congress to address those concerns.

AMY GOODMAN: If you win the Democratic primary tomorrow, you go up against Martin Hoke. Now, he is a two-termer. Usually, progressives who are involved in electoral politics these days are focusing on the first-termers, the freshman Republicans, because once you pass your freshman term and you are elected again, it’s much, much more difficult to unseat a Republican. Let’s look at Martin Hoke’s record. I’ve got before me Project Vote Smart’s record evaluation of all of the congressmembers — all of the congressmembers, actually. It’s something we’ve talked about for a while, Project Vote Smart, which has this kind of evaluation that it gets from dozens of groups, that has them evaluate each candidate. And I’m just going down the list here. It says the AFL-CIO Committee on Public Education gave him a 13% rating. That’s labor. Civil rights, the NAACP gave him a 30% rating. The defense industry, the American Security Council gave him an 80% rating. The National Right to Life Committee gave him an 89% rating. He’s extremely anti-choice. The National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League gave him a 0% rating. And he’s quite high on the NRA list. The National Rifle Association gave him 100% rating. What are the issues you’re taking on with him?

DENNIS KUCINICH: Well, the issues, as I see, are — they all relate to economic security. And I have to say that my campaign is not being run with respect to any other candidate, whether we’re talking about the primary or the general election. What we’ve been doing is setting out a program for economic security that includes, first of all, for the elderly, preserving Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid and pension benefits, because America has to keep its promises to our seniors. For working families, I’m interested in reforming NAFTA and GATT and building a high-wage, high-skill economy with job security and a shorter workweek.

AMY GOODMAN: Were you against NAFTA?

DENNIS KUCINICH: Yes, I was, absolutely, you know, and I think there’s plenty of evidence to prove why the agreement was put together in a way that hurt this country, because there are jobs being lost right now as a result of that agreement. And I’m also concerned about young people and that there be more funds for higher education and try to find increased job opportunities, as well as increasing the minimum wage, for our community to maintain and promote small business. And prevention and punishment of crime is something that ought to be the concern of everyone, as well as protecting the environment. So, these are generally areas where, wherever I’m going in the campaign, I’m talking about those issues. And I’m going to keep doing that. It’s a very issue-oriented campaign.

And I want to say that it’s a very people-oriented campaign. I’m proud of the fact that we’ve brought over 700 people into the campaign, knocking on doors, making phone calls, putting up signs. In a period of about two weeks, we put up over 5,000 yard signs throughout the district, which say, “Light up Congress. Elect Kucinich.” And the signs are a visible support of the grassroots campaign which we have, which I think is fundamental to trying to return government to the people. You have to go out to the people. That’s been — that’s where my politics start, at a grassroots, at a neighborhood level. And I’m very excited as I look forward to the results of the primary tomorrow night.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you a tough question. AP did a profile on you, and they did refer to this bit of a scandal in 1994 when some comments you made about a woman’s body were caught on videotape.

DENNIS KUCINICH: No, that’s not me.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s not you?

DENNIS KUCINICH: No, that’s Hoke.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Hoke. I got it wrong. OK.

DENNIS KUCINICH: Did Associated Press say that I did?

AMY GOODMAN: Let me see. It says, “Hoke defeated incumbent…” Aha. “He began his campaign for reelection…” OK. What did Martin Hoke say about a woman’s body?

DENNIS KUCINICH: I don’t know, and I have to tell you something. I’m not going to get into that at all. My whole campaign is directed at trying to bring economic security and job security to people. And, you know, I’ll let the media decide what it wants to do with those other issues, which the media does so well on. What I hope to do is to stay focused on the economics. And I appreciate the fact that you have corrected the record on that.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I’ll say then what they’re saying about Hoke is that some comment he made about the size of a woman’s breasts were caught on videotape when he didn’t think it was on. But in the end, he ended up winning, because his opponent, I guess, the Democrat, was implicated in some financial scandal.

DENNIS KUCINICH: Right. Well, I can tell you that this campaign is going to be quite different, in the sense that it’s very grassroots-oriented, it’s issue-oriented, and we’re giving every — you know, I’m giving everything I have to in terms of my own personal effort. And it’s all about trying to make sure that people feel secure in their jobs, in their neighborhoods and with their futures. And that’s, I think, what — the contribution I can make as a candidate, and hopefully as the next congressman of the 10th District from Ohio.

AMY GOODMAN: Dennis Kucinich, let me ask you something. We’ve been asking our listeners, “What makes a person qualified to be president?” for them to send us a job description. What do you think a president should have? And do you feel that President Clinton, who is head of your party, has embodied the kind of values that you can support?

DENNIS KUCINICH: First of all, I support President Clinton. And, you know, he and I may not agree politically on some issues, but I feel that, by and large, he has been a good president and that he’s worked under tremendous difficulties. Right from the beginning that he took office, he was under attack. And I think most fair-minded people understand that there was never an effort to give him a chance to do his job. He’s been under attack constantly.

AMY GOODMAN: His stance on NAFTA?

DENNIS KUCINICH: And — well, I don’t agree with him on that. You know, I make no bones about it. I mean, I would not go to Congress to mimic anyone. I’m going in there to represent my district. And I happen to believe that America would have been better off not going into that agreement, and so I would have advised and counseled and spoke in a manner different than some others. But by and large, I think Bill Clinton is a decent human being and that he deserves reelection, and I’m certainly going to be supporting his reelection.

And as far as the qualities which make a good president, I think it depends on the times. You know, each president has to, in a way, embody the times. It’s not just that the president — what the president brings to the country, it’s what the country brings to the president. And those two qualities are always synergistic and interact. And Bill Clinton, I think, is a person who is right for the times and has a — and has been able to steer a course that for the entire country has been responsible. And I don’t agree with him on some things, but, you know, we can have friends and people we like and still not agree with them on some bigger issues.

AMY GOODMAN: Dennis Kucinich, I want to thank you very much for joining us. Again, Dennis Kucinich was the youngest mayor ever. He was the mayor of Cleveland in the 1970s. He’s now running for Congress in the Cleveland area. Tomorrow is the primary. We’ll let you know what happens. Thanks for joining us. You’re Listening to Democracy Now!