AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Democracy Now!, Pacifica Radio’s daily grassroots election show. I’m Amy Goodman. Coming up in just a little while, we’ll be speaking with Dan Ellsberg on the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty. But right now, well, I hate to be the one to remind you, but on Monday, it’s Tax Day, and millions of Americans are preparing their tax returns. Well, there are some who won’t be sending in their checks to the U.S. government, not because they’re just procrastinators, or, “Ooh, is it really April 15th? I guess I forgot,” but because they’re acting on their conscience.

We’re joined by two of those people right now. We’re joined by Karen Marysdaughter of the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee and also Andrea Ayvazian of Western Massachusetts. She’s been a war tax resister for 14 years.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Andrea, why don’t we begin with you? Why aren’t you sending the U.S. government a check?

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: I’m not sending the U.S. government a check again this year, as I haven’t since 1982, because I think the reason is summed up in a little pie chart that I have scotch-taped to the wall of my study. And I think that really — I think that really sums up why I have to do war tax refusal. The pie chart shows where a dollar of our tax money gets spent, according to the national federal budget. And it shows very clearly, as it’s divided up, that the past military and the current military expenses receive 52 cents on every tax dollar. Human resources, those programs that actually meet human needs, receive 30 cents on every tax dollar. The government, the general government, receives 12 cents. And physical resources, including all of agriculture, commerce, energy, the transportation and environmental protection agencies receive six cents on every dollar. To me, the figures are absolutely identically reversed from what I wished the priorities were of our federal budget. And until they are reversed, I intend to withhold a portion of my federal income tax every year as a public, nonviolent, visible direct protest, saying that I want to support programs that meet human needs, and not past and current military expenses.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, you may have a lot of people saying right now, “Oh, hey, then I don’t have to do anything for April 15th.” Does this really mean that you have nothing to do around tax time?

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: I’m very busy around tax time. Starting the first of every year, I’m very busy because I am interested in filing a tax return so that I do not commit a federal felony, but, in fact, only commit a misdemeanor. I do a very planned and well-thought-out war tax resistance program for me. And what I do is I actually complete, to the penny, a tax form, the form that is due on April 15th, like everyone else. As a matter of fact, yesterday I mailed it in. So I complete a perfect form that shows, down to the penny, what the IRS believes I owe them. And then I decide, based on my pie chart, which changes every year depending on the federal budget, what portion of that figure that they believe I owe them I actually will pay, and it corresponds to the current military and past military expenses that are shown on the pie chart. So I’m very busy, like everyone else, filling out a detailed and accurate IRS form. It’s just that then I add a letter explaining in great detail why it is that I cannot pay, because of conscience, because of my faith, because of my beliefs in nonviolence and in peace, why I cannot pay the figure that is shown on the bottom of the form. I send that letter to them with a check that is less than what they believe it should be. I send that letter to my local paper and to my senators and representatives.

AMY GOODMAN: Karen Marysdaughter, you also are a war tax resister, up in Maine. How did you decide not to pay the taxes that you believe go to the Pentagon?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: The turning point for me was in the early 1980s, when I heard a talk about famine going on in Cambodia and was asked to write out a check to support the victims of the famine. And somehow I realized that the taxes I paid the year before had helped contribute to that famine by contributing to bombing in Cambodia, and that, in fact, I was not even balancing out the money that I personally had spent to create the famine.

I also was outraged by the huge peacetime military buildup that started in the early 1980s, and the increased threat of nuclear war. And I felt I could not in good conscience anymore pay for killing and pay for vastly outpriced weapons systems that we’re taking money away from human needs in this country.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what percentage of your taxes don’t you pay?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: I don’t pay any of my federal income taxes, because no matter how much you send in, even if you sent in a dollar, they would use 52% of it for the military. There is currently no way that the government will allow a taxpayer to earmark and say, “I want this money, for example, to go to housing instead of to weapon systems.” So, I refuse to pay them the whole portion. I take 100% of my taxes, and instead I give it to groups, primarily here in Maine, who are working to meet human needs.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, some people might be surprised to hear this percentage, 52%, 22% going to the current military budget, 30% going to the past. First of all, what is the past military budget?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: Well, one thing that happens is that when the federal government presents its budget figures, it does a little bit of smoke and mirrors. Prior to the War in Vietnam, when the government presented its federal budget, it only included the general fund. Well, there was a huge outcry about the War in Vietnam, and they decided they needed to cover that up a little, so they started lumping in Social Security funds, which are separate trust funds that are earmarked for a specific purpose. Once they lumped those in, it, of course, made the percentage for the military look smaller and the percentage for human needs look bigger. When you remove those trust funds, and then when you look at the fact that following every war that the U.S. has been involved in, and then following this huge military budget in the buildup in the 1980s, the national debt has vastly increased. There have been drastic increases. Then, budget analysts figure that a certain percentage of the national debt is in fact due to military spending. So, we calculate a certain percentage of the interest that we’re paying on the national debt as being due to military spending.

AMY GOODMAN: Andrea Ayvazian, you pay about half of your taxes. You don’t pay what? Fifty-two percent.

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: That’s right.

AMY GOODMAN: How does the government respond to your letter explaining why you won’t pay taxes to the Pentagon every year?

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: Well, I think Karen would agree, and all the tax resisters nationwide would agree, that it actually is a very effective form of protest, because you don’t get ignored. Now, I’ve spent 20 years engaged in marches and rallies and vigils and sing-outs and die-ins and pray-ins and all kinds of wonderful and important forms of protest. And, you know, sometimes one feels that, you know, the lights are on, and nobody’s home, in terms of the policymakers and the legislators and the people that you want to turn around and take note that you’re there. But with the war tax resistance, they certainly do take note.

It’s a very effective form of protest, because one starts to receive mail, computerized unsigned letters that say, “You’re in violation of the law. You sent in a tax return that said you owed this number of dollars, and you didn’t send that number of dollars.” They totally ignore my letter. They don’t care about my letter at all. “And therefore, we are going to give you a — this is a warning, and if you don’t send in this amount that you owe plus 15% interest and 5% penalty, which means you’re fee is now up to XYZ, we will, in fact, take action.”

And, of course, I never send the money. And I have, you know, many of these letters. I was going to say hundreds. I probably have dozens and dozens and dozens of these letters over the years. And I don’t take action. I do read them, but I don’t send the money. And then, after a matter of weeks or months — it’s generally months, because they’re not very efficient, and they don’t move that fast; I’m blaming the money — they will up the ante and start sending certified letters that say, “This is your 10-day notice. We have warned you. You have to pay this money plus your interest and penalty. And if you don’t, we will take it from you in one of these ways.” When you get the 10-day notice, I generally think you have about six months. It takes them about six months to act on the 10-day notice.

And then they seize the money, at least that’s what’s happened to me. Everybody has a different story. First, they try and get it from your bank. So, they go to the bank and are a certified agent and can take all the money you owe plus interest and penalty from your bank. They’ve also — they’ve done that, but I haven’t had any money there sometimes. They’ve also, a number of times, in two different jobs, put a lien on my paycheck, which means they get 75% of my paycheck, and I get 25% of what I earned. They’ve also put a lien on my house twice. Because they have seized the money from different places, they have lifted the lien on my house, because they’ve gotten it through my paycheck, where both employers have paid under protest and have made quite a visible and articulate protesting statement, but have paid them.

AMY GOODMAN: So, they eventually have gotten your money. Karen Marysdaughter, have they gotten yours?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: No, they’ve never gotten any money from me. They’ve never made a serious attempt to collect from me, even though I’ve been highly public for the past 15 years since I started this. It varies around the country. There are many more tax resisters who have never had any action taken. There are also many who have had the kind of experience that Andrea has described. For the most part, the action the IRS has taken against people who are conscientiously opposed to war and taking this step because of that is civil penalties and seizing assets. Other kinds of actions are pretty rare.

AMY GOODMAN: Andrea, you’ve had neighbors, like Randy Kehler, for example, who served time in jail during the Vietnam War for resisting, who’ve had their house taken away.

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: Absolutely. And Randy and Betsy and Lillian had their house seized a number of years ago. And it was — and I think — they’re very close. Randy is my son’s godfather, very close to us. And I think Randy and Betsy and Lillian — I’m not sure if Lillian would say that, but certainly Randy and Betsy would say that it ended up being a very positive experience, although painful and difficult and anxiety-producing. It was an amazing time of organizing solidarity and closeness. The IRS did seize their home. Randy did spend time in jail for resisting that. They, of course, were put out of their home. And Betsy lived in — while Randy was in jail, in someone else’s home, I believe, or I think rented an apartment. It was a huge trauma.

But it was an amazing rallying point. It raised consciousness. It brought people together. We occupied the house. I was one of the affinity — I was in one of the affinity groups that occupied the house. It was a time of a tremendous amount of consciousness raising and organizing. And we made a very powerful statement to the powers that be, that, as we used to sing daily, we shall not be moved, we shall not be defeated. And it strengthened many people’s conviction to work against war and violence. And also we got some new converts to the war tax resistance movement.

AMY GOODMAN: Karen Marysdaughter, you’re with the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee, which is coordinating dozens of grassroots actions around the United States in this tax season. What are people doing?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: One of the main things that people do around Tax Day is to give away the money that they refuse to pay the government, to groups that are working to provide basic human needs, such as housing, healthcare, education, jobs, and/or to groups that are working to promote peace and justice. Last year, the 36 funds that we have around the country gave away a total of $60,000 and loaned out a total of $120,000. And probably the figures this year will be similar to that. That doesn’t even count then the tax resisters who give their money away directly and not through an alternative fund. But many groups, including our group here locally, today is giving away about $1,250 here in the state of Maine.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you tell us about any activities that are taking place?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: Yes, there are actions happening in about 50 cities around the country. Another common action is form a street theater or public displays. So, for example, in St. Louis, the group is going to have a 100-foot graph under the Arch in St. Louis that depicts military spending compared to other kinds of spending. The group in Chicago is going to go into the IRS problems resolution office and roll out a graph, again, depicting military spending compared to other spending. The group in Milwaukee is going to actually attempt to occupy the IRS and risk arrest.

Many groups, including the one in Eugene, Oregon, do what is known as penny polls, which means they put out jars marked with categories of federal spending and give passersby, say, 10 pennies and ask them to put the pennies in the jars that they would like to see their money go to. Over the years, every penny poll that has ever happened has shown that taxpayers prefer that their money go to things like education, healthcare, jobs. Military spending typically comes in at about 6% or 10%, or 12%, much lower than what the government is actually spending.

And, of course, there will be leafleting of the pie chart that Andrea was mentioning at post offices during the time when people are filing their returns at the last minute.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you both something. Right now we’re watching the standoff in Montana between the Freemen and the U.S. government. My question to you is — here you’re deciding not to pay taxes based on your own conscience. You don’t feel that the federal government should have the authority to take away your money to put into the Pentagon. They, too, feel they have the right not to respect laws that they don’t agree with? Do you see any difference between you and them?

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: I certainly do. And I’m — this is Andrea. And I think Karen will respond to this, I hope, as well. War tax resistance, for many of us, is a very public protest that is very engaged with the system. We are working within the system to change the system. We publicly — I should probably say “I,” because every war tax resister chooses his or her own path and makes a statement in his or her own way. My tax resistance and many of my friends in Western Mass, it’s a very public-engaged protest. We are working within the system. We are part of the — I am part of mainstream America. I pay my state taxes. I’m involved with my son’s school. I am very involved in my community. And the war tax resistance is a public, visible way of saying there is, as a person of faith, a higher law that I am following; however, I will engage with you. I will — I certainly have paid the penalties and the fines. I mean, they have been taken from me. And I think there’s a difference from the Freemen, because we are staying very engaged with the system and trying to change and reform it from within.

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: I would say that we are a war resistance movement. We are not primarily a tax resistance movement. We are a war resistance movement. We cannot in good conscience pay to have someone kill on our behalf. We cannot in good conscience see money that should in fact be meeting human needs and providing real security in our country being used instead to create dangerous and destabilizing weapons. Tax resistance is one tactic that we, as war resisters, have chosen to use in order to express our deep conviction that nonviolent action is the only kind of action that is effective and that we can in good conscience support.

AMY GOODMAN: What about if people start withholding certain amounts of money that they think are going places, for example, that they think are going to support abortion in this country?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: I, of course, support the right of people to express their conscience in nonviolent ways. I am a nonviolent activist. I am a pacifist, and I support nonviolent forms of social action.

We have to point out that abortion is a minuscule portion of the federal budget compared to military spending. So, in terms of the amount of money we’re talking about, there’s a vast difference.

Revenue refusal as a form of nonviolent protest has been a time-honored method, used historically. And I think it’s a valid protest for people to use.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask if you’ve got a number that people can contact if they’re interested in the war tax resistance movement. Karen?

KAREN MARYSDAUGHTER: Yes, we have an 800 number. It’s 1-800-269-7464. 1-800-269-7464.

ANDREA AYVAZIAN: IPeople can also reach out to the War Resisters League in New York City, 212-228-0450.

AMY GOODMAN: Andrea and Karen, thanks for joining us on this Living Democracy segment of Democracy Now! Andrew Ayvazian of Western Massachusetts, a war tax resister for 14 years. Karen Marysdaughter with the National War Tax Resistance Coordinating Committee based in Maine. You’re listening to Democracy Now! Up next, Daniel Ellsberg, after this.