AMY GOODMAN: Let’s see, how did USA Today put it? “Will Success Spoil Victor Morales?” A high school civics teacher and small-town councilman, Morales stunned the Texas political establishment Tuesday by defeating a seven-term congressman and earning the Democratic Senate nomination. Now facing the savvy and well-financed incumbent, GOP Senator Phil Gramm, Morales must run a statewide campaign skilled enough to beat Gramm in November without appearing to become a politician himself.

And joining us right now to talk about his prospects is the politician, is the man himself, Victor Morales, Democratic candidate for Senate from Texas. We’re also joined by Jim Hightower, former editor of _The Texas Observer, progressive populist, and author of the forthcoming book, There’s Nothing in the Middle of the Road But Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos.

I want to welcome you both to Democracy Now! Let’s begin with Victor Morales. Can you tell us, sir, what it is you stand for in Texas? And what was the planks that you ran on?

VICTOR MORALES: I was simply an ordinary person who was tired and frustrated. And I was tired and frustrated of what we perceive as just political rhetoric. You’ve got very complicated problems. And I think, like many people told me, I just want the truth. You know, for example, they tell me, “I know you’re not going to go up there and fix all those problems, Victor. And the issues are many, but at least tell us the truth.” You know, I think people just want to make sure that someone’s going out there not to get rich or on a power trip, etc. So, I mean, I didn’t have all these deep philosophical ideas, except that I always said, “Well, no one seems to be doing this, especially the senator we have now.” So I said, “I’ll do it,” and I took off.

But as far as issues, I’m concerned, like many of us are, about many things: education, welfare, the immigration, crime — crime from a prevention standpoint, immigration from the rhetoric which attacks aliens, illegal aliens. Yes, we know there’s problems, but this mindset of attack, attack, is just going nowhere. So, affirmative action, not time to get rid of it yet. Yes, if you can find a place where it’s been abused, let’s reform, as President Clinton said a while back, but not time to get rid of it yet. So, just a scattering issues. I know people had said, “Victor, be sure to have three issues. Get well versed, and get on them and get on them.” But when you’re driving yourself across the state of Texas, as I did for 60,000 miles-plus in my truck, you don’t have time to do a whole lot, except meet the people. And I made that a priority.

AMY GOODMAN: Right now you’ll be going up against Phil Gramm. He’s taken a very strong stance against abortion —

VICTOR MORALES: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: — also known as a corporate politician, raised a tremendous amount of money for his campaign. What are your stands on abortion and on corporate power in this country?

VICTOR MORALES: I’ve always felt — I guess I’ve never been rich, so I don’t really have an understanding of why sometimes it seems they feel so abused, you know. But I think I’ll go back to a young man I met on the campaign trail who said, “Victor, we’ve got to have a flat tax, OK? My uncle is a cardiologist, had to pay $300,000 in taxes.” And I’m sorry. I guess I’ve been poor. I’ve been low-income, and I’m middle-class, and I just can’t understand that. I go, “If he had to pay $300,000, geez, let’s trade jobs.” You know, I don’t see the problem there. I really don’t. I mean, he took a lot out of society, as well, you know. So, as far as that’s concerned, my outlook is of just an everyday citizen.

And on abortion, unfortunately, many times people just want to tag you pro-choice, pro-life. So, if they want that tag on me, I’m pro-choice. But like many other people who are pro-choice, who are disturbed by the high number of abortions, maybe, again, from an educational standpoint, we can do something in high teenage pregnancy rates to bring them down. But if my wife and I feel adamantly that in cases of incest or rape, a woman should have a choice, or life endangerment, then we have or my wife has made a choice, and then it’s very difficult to go on and say, “But not in your case.”

AMY GOODMAN: As a result of your win, the mainstream media is talking about this as the increasing power of the Latino vote in Texas. You won with 80% support from Latino voters. Is that your interpretation?

VICTOR MORALES: Well, it might be true. But let’s go back to somebody, originally, when they asked me, “Will you be targeting the Hispanic vote?” And I said, “No, because I’m going to be the U.S. senator for everybody.” And so, I didn’t. I hit them like I hit everybody else. I was all over the state. So, of course, it’s true that there’s many Hispanics who have — and I’m glad they’re proud of me, voted for me because I’m Hispanic. But, you know, let’s be realistic. There’s also probably some people who voted against me for that. So, I really don’t consider — you know, think in those terms.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Victor Morales, who is now the Democratic candidate for Senate from Texas. He beat out the long-term Democratic Congressmember John Bryant, who resigned from his seat to run for the Senate. We’re also joined by Jim Hightower, longtime progressive commentator in Texas and also former agriculture commissioner there. Were you surprised, Jim, by Victor Morales’s win?

JIM HIGHTOWER: Not really. I was surprised by his success in — first of all, congratulations, Victor. What a terrific race you made.

VICTOR MORALES: Thank you, Mr. Hightower.

JIM HIGHTOWER: I was surprised by his success in the first primary. But in the runoff, you know, as people get to know who he is and got to get a sense of him, and as I realized that this was a guy who was not going to hire consultants, I thought, “Hey, he’s really got a chance.” You know, they say — Mark Twain said that every now and then, an innocent man gets sent to Congress. And I think that’s what we got in store for us.

And it is a very exciting moment, not just for Hispanics. And I want to stress that. Victor ran — won up in the northeast Texas, the old populist section of the state, too, which is not a Hispanic stronghold in the state. And he ran strongly in every section of the state.

And I think he did so because, as your listeners just heard probably for the first time, this is an honest guy. He just stepped forward and says, “You know, there’s a mess up there, and I don’t know if I can handle it. But can I really do worse than those people who are now trying to handle it?” And people said, “Hey, I think I’m for Victor.”

AMY GOODMAN: Well, you know, I was talking to an AP reporter in Austin, Texas, yesterday, and I was talking to him about Victor Morales. And I said, you know, “Is he easy to get in touch with?” He said, “Oh, yes, he’s very acceptable. So are his aides, his advisers, his campaign strategist. In fact, they’re all him. They’re all Victor Morales.” Now — 

JIM HIGHTOWER: Well, Victor Morales and his family.

VICTOR MORALES: Yeah, my wife is helping a lot.

JIM HIGHTOWER: Exactly.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s right. The one thing I saw about you on TV before the races began was that you had to drive around in a pickup truck for this campaign because she uses the van.

VICTOR MORALES: That’s correct. And, well, we have a 9- and 10-year-old, so it’s just logical that she needs that to get around.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me ask you something, Mr. Morales. Now it seems that it certainly will change. I mean, the Democratic machine, the Democratic committee, has been supporting your opponent, John Bryant. Well, now they’re going to have to come behind you. Have those meetings begun?

VICTOR MORALES: Well, I’m right now with Senator Kerry. Well, I met with him yesterday afternoon. We went to a dinner and a fundraiser for his committee. And he mentioned about how they can help us. And so we’re just really starting to talk about that now.

AMY GOODMAN: Will you be hiring advisers? Will you be hiring aides, strategists?

VICTOR MORALES: Not strategists, not consultants, no. Maybe a campaign manager would be great, someone to take the load off of me so I can do what I like to do the best, and that is meet the people. And also read. That’s been a — it’s been a hardship on me. As a government teacher, I’m extremely well read, normally, because I love to debate. I like to get in it with the students and peers, etc. But driving, of course, has been a real hardship.

And that was one of the criticisms about me at times, that, you know, I didn’t seem to know all the issues. But then, in my defense, in the paper the other day, Senator Dole — I forget which day it was — was talking about NAFTA, and they talked about how Mr. Buchanan asked him, “Well, would you vote for NAFTA?” And Senator Dole said, “Not without some changes.” And the gentleman said, “Well, what would you change?” “Well, we don’t know that yet.” Now, here’s a man who’s been at it 30 years, or plus, and is well acquainted with the NAFTA bill, and he doesn’t know some things. So, I kind of take little bit offense at how in the world they expect me to have all these policies in with nuts and bolts. I have a basic knowledge of an ordinary man. I have a knowledge of the truth. I think that’s more important.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me switch for a second to another upset this week that was another upset of a party machine, and that’s the Republicans. You had Congressmember Greg Laughlin, one of the Democratic congressmen who switched parties after the ’94 GOP landslide, and his defeat is sure to embarrass national and state Republican Party leaders, because they worked overtime to ensure his victory. Let me ask you, Jim Hightower, what about this race?

JIM HIGHTOWER: Oh, it was a moment of just glorious joy for me to see Greg Laughlin, this party switcher — you know, Democrats were never that proud of Greg anyway. He’s got the IQ of a leaf blower. And so, for him then to switch parties, which he did just strictly out of opportunism — you know, he didn’t switch parties when the Democrats were in power; he switched parties when the Republicans came to power.

And then, for him to — for the whole Republican establishment to come down there and hug him — I’m talking about Newt Gingrich, his own self, came, George Bush, Shrub Bush. All the entire kit and caboodle that the Republican Party has came down there and hugged up on old Greg. And, you know, in Texas, all these endorsements don’t mean a whole lot. In fact, if you get too many of them, as I think Greg did, Texans back up and say, “Well, there must be something wrong with this guy, if they’re all coming down there and hugging on him.” So it was a glorious moment in which, really, the establishment just took a whack upside the head.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, the man that beat him, Ron Paul, had a number of endorsements, as well. He had endorsements from people like, what, Phyllis Schlafly?

JIM HIGHTOWER: Right. Well, he’s flakier than mama’s pie crust, and we’re going to have a good time with him, “we” being the Democrats, going against him down there, because a guy named Charles “Lefty” Morris, a terrific guy — and he’s not known as “Lefty” because of his communist ties. He’s known as “Lefty” because he used to be a left-handed ball player out in Big Spring, Texas. So, he’s another guy kind of up from the grassroots, just like Victor is, so maybe the Democratic Party is beginning to get its act together, putting some candidates forward that people can actually like.

AMY GOODMAN: But with Ron Paul, he was formerly with the Libertarian Party. Do you think libertarian politics is gaining popularity in Texas?

JIM HIGHTOWER: Well, there’s always been a strong libertarian streak in Texas, even before there was a Libertarian Party. And, in fact, libertarians, though they didn’t call themselves that, and populists are what settled this state. So, that streak is there alive and well, but I don’t think it means much for the Libertarian Party per se, particularly because Ron Paul, while he has some legitimate libertarian positions, he also has some just further-out-than-Pluto positions.

AMY GOODMAN: I see he also got the endorsement of economist Milton Friedman, in addition to former Texas Rangers pitching ace Nolan Ryan, who managed his campaign.

JIM HIGHTOWER: Well, Milton Friedman, I don’t know how many Texans know Milton Friedman. I’m not sure that’s a big endorsement.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let’s go to Victor Morales again. What made you decide? I mean, what was the moment where you said, “I think I’m going to run for Senate”? Were you sitting in a classroom, in your government civics class?

VICTOR MORALES: I actually was reading, or I had heard that morning and then was reading, getting ready for the first class, about Mr. Gramm running for president and some of the comments he was making, let’s say, on affirmative action. And he was referring to them again as quotas: “If I’m president, I’ll get rid of these quotas, affirmative action, bingo, period.” And this bothered me as an educator. I mean, I know there’s a lot that I don’t know, right? I’m not only a teacher, but also a learner. And I think this man, in a powerful position such as this, is going around making simplistic statements like that to score political points, and that’s wrong. Not only does he hurt people that he’s against, but also his own people, by keeping them ignorant with emotional touch-button statements, right?

So, at that time, that’s when I said, “Geez, won’t someone take this guy on?” And, of course, I knew everybody’s talking about his money, and everybody’s scared of his power, etc., etc. But I made a few calls to see if any of our officials were going to do it. Nobody was. I was talking to the students about it. And they said, “Well, why don’t you do it?” And I said, “Well, why not?”

And I jumped in my truck, did a little experimental summer tour, whenever I could, because I had my 9- and 10-year-olds with me. I stay home with them every summer. And the reaction was great. Across the board, Black, white, Brown, old, young, rich, poor, didn’t seem to matter. Very few people question my sanity. Everybody said, “This is great. I love it.” You know, and didn’t Gramm switch parties? It’s funny how we’re talking about that, because that was mentioned many times across the trip. “Oh, yeah, that’s the guy that jumped, back in ’83.” That’s right.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me put this question to both of you. And that is, some are saying that the Republicans are now leaping for joy, that Bryant ran on the — basically, his main point was that he was the only Democrat who had a chance to beat Phil Gramm, being a many-term Democratic congressmember from Texas. What’s your response to that, Victor Morales?

VICTOR MORALES: Well, that’s the first time I’ve heard that. I mean, we’ve heard completely the opposite over here. Across the state, regular people and people a little bit involved would say, “There’s no way” — as a matter of fact, people who have been involved very much, but probably wouldn’t want to be named, but they said, “There’s no way that Bryant can win.” I heard that over and over and over again, and “You’re completely different. You might have a chance.” Oh, there’s still people — in fact, last night, there was a gentleman at a fundraiser who said, “Victor, you don’t have a snowball in hell’s chance of winning, you know, but I’m glad you’re doing it.” So you have those. But, really, quite consistently, I heard Bryant has no chance. He has baggage, political baggage, that will hurt him. Gramm will do just the same thing as he did with the other two.

JIM HIGHTOWER: And I’m hoping that Gramm just keeps listening to those experts who are telling him that Victor Morales doesn’t stand a chance. And that story Victor just told there about the guy who says last night, “Well, you don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell, Victor, but I’m for you,” well, that’s being repeated all across the state. “He doesn’t have a chance, but I’m for him.” Well, that’s just the best political advertisement you can have.

AMY GOODMAN: Are you prepared for the onslaught, Mr. Morales? I mean, Phil Gramm is known as an extremely vicious campaigner.

VICTOR MORALES: Oh, yes, yes. Well, I made a challenge on the night that I won. I told him — I challenged Phil Gramm to just go on his issues and what he thinks and on his record, and, man to man, do it like a man of respect. Of course, I know I might just be talking to the wind. But you can’t prepare for anything like that. You can’t prepare for ugly things in politics. There’s pain involved. The only thing I can say is I’m pretty tough, and I don’t worry about myself so much. I do have family. But there’s nothing I can do about it. I’ve made the step, and it should be part of it. I’ll just continue the high road. But as I also mentioned, I hope they don’t mistake my niceness for weakness, because I will fight back. I just won’t get dirty.

AMY GOODMAN: What is your stance on immigration?

VICTOR MORALES: I have agreed with many people that we do need to control our borders. And it’s always — but, you know, again, perspective. It’s always been a problem. You know, we’ve always had illegal aliens. And there’s always been the thought of, “Oh, you know, you remember the Irish?” “Oh, the Chinese?” I mean, this is nothing new. It just seems we get up and attack the immigrants whenever there’s certain problems. And so, I say, yeah, let’s protect our borders. And I had no problem when Clinton sent for more border guards.

But this Buchanan outlook of the fence and the horde, I mean, that’s ridiculous. I mean, being a grandson of immigrants myself, I know there’s a lot of contribution, a lot more than is talked about in this political rhetoric. So, I can understand the anger when all the taxpayers hear is about they’re abusing our healthcare system, our education system, but that’s all they hear. They’re not hearing about the tremendous amount of — for example, like a study that said, for example, that they, I think, on average, this one particular study said, bring in $2,000 more into our system than they take out. You know, you don’t hear things like that. You just hear the attack mode.

AMY GOODMAN: Mr. Morales, you were forced to — you felt, personally, that you wanted to reveal that your father, who left your family when you were 15, is in jail, because you said that people are going to find out anyway. Are you afraid about what this means for your family, the kind of exposure?

VICTOR MORALES: I don’t know what I could do. I mean, the man left me when I was 15 or 16. I’m 46 years old. If people don’t want to vote for me because of that, then so be it, is kind of my attitude.

JIM HIGHTOWER: I think, Amy, that’s going to help him. There’s hardly a Texas family that doesn’t have somebody who’s been to jail.

AMY GOODMAN: Jim Hightower, would you like to give us a thumbnail sketch of Texas politics changing right now, I mean, from people like Laughlin losing to people like Victor Morales winning?

JIM HIGHTOWER: Well, I think it’s a national picture, really, that Victor spoke the truth when he said that he got into politics because he was fed up, and that when he went around in his pickup truck, stopping at gas stations and the chat-and-chews, cafes, all across the state, people were saying the same thing. And along comes somebody who doesn’t have a covey of professionals, doesn’t have PR flaks surrounding them and big advertising campaigns and just talks from the heart. That’s what people want to hear. And that is — you know, if the Democrats come forward with more people like Victor Morales, we’re going see more of the little-D democrats going for the big-D Democratic Party.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Victor Morales, the Democratic Senate candidate, and Jim Hightower, a populist progressive and author of the upcoming book, There’s Nothing in the Middle of the Road But Yellow Stripes and Dead Armadillos, we want to thank you very much both for joining us.

VICTOR MORALES: Thank you for having me.

AMY GOODMAN: And coming up next — thank you very much.

JIM HIGHTOWER: Thank you, Amy. It’s going to be a fun year.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re looking forward to covering it. Coming up next on Democracy Now!, our living democracy segment on war tax resistance, and then Dan Ellsberg will be with us in the studio. You’re listening to Pacific Radio’s Democracy Now!