AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Pacific Radio’s Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman.

Kurds are all over Europe holding protests for a third day to denounce the arrest of PPK leader Abdullah Öcalan in Kenya this Monday, as well as the killing yesterday of three Kurds by Israeli security guards at the Israeli Consulate in Berlin. The three were killed, and at least 16 injured, when they were protesting the possible involvement of the Israeli foreign intelligence service, known as the Mossad, in Öcalan’s arrest. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu denied the Mossad’s involvement in Öcalan’s arrest and said the guards killed the protesters in self-defense. Öcalan’s lawyers today accused the CIA of taking part in Öcalan’s capture, a charge the U.S. has denied.

Meanwhile, dozens of protests are taking place at Greek and Israeli missions all over Europe, and up to 70 Kurdish activists have taken over the U.N. headquarters in Vienna. Öcalan’s arrest has turned into a huge international controversy. Greek Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos and two other Cabinet members resigned yesterday amid the political fallout after Greece failed to protect Öcalan from arrest by Turkish authorities. Öcalan had taken refuge in the Greek Embassy in Nairobi, when he was captured and flown back to Turkey.

The Kenyan government also reshuffled its Cabinet today, although there’s no immediate confirmation whether it’s tied to Öcalan’s capture. Some officials have been shifted, and others fired, and there are reports that the chief of immigration, Frank Kwinga, may have lost his job after reports that Öcalan was able to sneak into the country using a false passport.

The Kurdish independence leader is being transferred to an island prison in Turkey, after several hundred prisoners were evacuated from the detention facility. He’s awaiting trial and faces the death penalty if convicted. Öcalan’s lawyers, who have been denied entry into Turkey, have said they fear for his life, and international human rights organizations have questioned whether he will receive a fair trial in Turkey. Turkish authorities have thus far said international observers will not be permitted to witness Öcalan’s trial.

We’re joined right now by two people to talk about the latest news on Öcalan. Vera Beaudin Saeedpour is with us, founder of the Kurdish Library and Kurdish Museum in New York. She’s editor of Kurdish Life and International Journal of Kurdish Studies. Holly Cartner is also with us, executive director of Human Rights Watch for Europe and Central Asia.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Vera Saeedpour, can you talk about these latest developments and what you think the significance of Öcalan is for the Kurds?

VERA BEAUDIN SAEEDPOUR: Well, in terms of the significance of Öcalan, he really represents the only group that has had the wherewithal to mount an armed conflict in response to a 73-year-old policy of denying and punishing any manifestation of Kurdish ethnic existence. And so, whereas there are other Kurdish groups in Turkey, no one — no group has put its life on the line in that way, in that overt way. And so he really symbolizes for the Kurds those who will die for them to get their rights.

In terms of the Kurdish situation now, that was really precipitated by a move by Turkey to get Öcalan evicted from Syria. And when he got into Europe, he expected better treatment, because he expected that all of the European countries that had rhetorically promoted Kurdish rights, based largely on the fact that they didn’t want to admit Turkey into the EU and the Kurds were a perfect took in terms of their human rights record — apparently, they didn’t want to put their money where their mouth was, you know, when it was really difficult for them, so that they managed to get rid of him. And now, rhetorically, they’re asking for a fair trial for him. But I think that this is only the eye of the storm, because from now on it just really depends on what happens with him as to what’s going to happen in terms of a Kurdish response.

AMY GOODMAN: Holly Cartner, what is your assessment of Öcalan, your understanding of how he actually did get to Turkey and what his significance is?

HOLLY CARTNER: Well, on the issue of his significance, I think that it’s absolutely right that he has been the leader of a movement that really put Kurdish rights, or the violation of Kurdish rights, in Turkey on the map. And he did this in a quite — through an armed conflict that has been going on for some 15 years now.

I guess one point that I would like to make as a human rights organization, there is no doubt that the Turkish government has violated Kurdish rights in every respect, and continues to do so quite brutally today. There are a number of different ways that we could discuss this in terms of the torture, the attacks by Kurdish — by Turkish Armed Forces on Kurdish villages in the southeast. There are a whole host of abuses that the Turkish Army has committed. However, I think it’s quite different to talk about the struggle for Kurdish rights and to look at Öcalan and the trial process that is now underway.

We have taken the position, from the beginning of his arrest in Italy, that he should be brought to trial, because every side in a conflict needs to be held accountable for its abuses. And the PKK has, unfortunately, committed its fair share of atrocities during the conflict. So we believe that Öcalan, it was — it is necessary for justice to take place, for Öcalan to be held accountable. However, we were opposed to him being extradited to Turkey, because we had serious concerns about his ability to obtain a fair trial there, as well as his own physical security in Turkey. He is a security detainee. He will be prosecuted under the state security courts in Turkey. And as such, he will be given a more limited number of procedural protections than a normal criminal defendant would get. And he is — security detainees in Turkey, generally, are much more vulnerable to torture and other mistreatment. So, those are concerns that we have had about the fact that he is now in Turkey, in custody in Turkey.

AMY GOODMAN: Vera Saeedpour, what is your response to Human Rights Watch’s assessment of Abdullah Öcalan?

VERA BEAUDIN SAEEDPOUR: Well, I just find it always interesting that in order to be even-handed, the human rights organizations talk about the responsibility of guerrillas. But I feel — I feel this way. I feel that there has been no — in modern times, no more chronic, no more egregious situation for Kurds in the world. There is no comparison between the Kurdish situation in Turkey, to have been summarily ethnically cleansed by decree, and then to have any manifestation of your culture, whether it be a headdress or a music tape or a piece of paper written in Kurdish or a Kurdish speech in public, compared with, say, the Iraqi Kurds, who really were fighting for control over their land, without this cultural kind of annihilation that took place and is continuing to take place in Turkey. So that I feel that to put people in such a desperate situation, to have a supporter no less than the United States to excuse and to dismiss what has been happening, while they’ve been attending to places like Bosnia and Kosovo, I think you have people in an untenable position, with no ombudsman really anywhere, because to talk about the human rights abuses is not really to ameliorate them. It’s simply to expose them.

But there’s such a litany of abuses there that it really — it really defies the imagination of any American. And I think that the desperation of the Kurds, which you can see from the protests in Europe, the desperation to have no place in the world, really, to turn to — nothing. If you back up a rat into a corner, he will attack you. And I think in terms of the violence that went on in the conflict, the Kurds have had very good teachers, growing up in Turkey, so that I think that when you talk about war, you talk about violence. And that’s just — that’s inherent in this situation. And I just feel that you’re talking about desperate people, who really have a justifiable, the most justifiable of all the Kurdish situations, really, you know, to have reacted in the way that they have.

AMY GOODMAN: Holly Cartner, your response to Vera Saeedpour?

HOLLY CARTNER: Well, for most of what Vera has said, I absolutely agree. I mean, there is no doubt that the Kurdish people in Turkey have suffered innumerable horrible atrocities and human rights violations, in every respect, from attacks on their villages, from the burning and destruction of their villages, to limitations on basic civil and political rights, such as organizing their own parties and their own journals. Anyone who speaks out with a pro-Kurdish tendency, even today in Turkey, is likely to be prosecuted, and even imprisoned.

However, that in no way can be a justification for abuses by the PKK. The PKK has committed summary executions in a very large number. It has attacked civilians, including Kurdish civilians, that it believed were in — you know, working with the Turkish government. Now, we may, on some level, understand why they would do that. But international law prohibits that kind of attack on civilians. Humanitarian law prohibits that not only by the government’s side, but by any other armed forces that are operating. And as a human rights organization, we understand, on the one hand, and have many times documented the abuses against Kurds, but that does not and cannot possibly justify humanitarian law violations by the other side.

I think one of the things that we need to work on, and that Human Rights Watch will certainly be working on, is to take this opportunity to once again press the Turkish government. If they are really serious about justice, that justice should not only apply to Öcalan, it should apply to the Turkish Armed Forces. And we have said and will continue to work to pressure the Turkish government to bring its own security forces to justice. There needs to be a serious investigation in Turkey about the role that the Turkish security forces have played in the southeast and the numerous atrocities that have been committed by their side.

AMY GOODMAN: Vera Saeedpour, I wanted to get your response, but also, in this last minute, to ask you about what you assess to be the total shakeup in a number of governments now. You have the Greek foreign minister and others who have been forced to quit in Greece. You have the Israeli Consulate security in Berlin shooting dead three Kurds. You have a Kenyan government shakeup. This is having world implications.

VERA BEAUDIN SAEEDPOUR: Well, you know, I’m sure that it does. I was rather surprised at the — you know, at the attacks on the — or the protests in front of the in Greek embassies, because, I mean, I’m sure that the Greeks were on the end of the diving board because they had Öcalan in their care. But I think that the Kurds realize that the relationship between Israel and Turkey — and Israel provides intelligence services, strategic intelligence services, to Turkey, so that they begin to see the antecedents to the situation. The United States also has been the greatest supporter of Turkey. And even in the reports that came out to date, the United States has said they were not, quotes, “directly” involved, and that’s according to Reuters reports. So you see that Turkey did not do this alone. And so, the Kurds are simply reacting at this point, because they’re desperate because of the situation that has emerged out of this, out of this Öcalan’s going to Europe. I mean, you can’t — this is a very, very volatile situation now. It’s extremely volatile. And nobody knows which turn it can take. The intervening variables are many in this situation.

I would also like to respond to something that the Human Rights Watch representative said.

AMY GOODMAN: Holly Cartner.

VERA BEAUDIN SAEEDPOUR: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: And we just have 10 seconds, so very quickly.

VERA BEAUDIN SAEEDPOUR: Oh, I’m sorry. It’s that the abuses of Kurds, by Kurds, which Öcalan is being indicted partly for, has been going on in Iraqi Kurdistan since the Gulf War, and organizations like Human Rights Watch have not exposed that at all. So I find it interesting, that selective kind of indignation.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, on that note, I want to thank you both very much for being with us. Vera Beaudin Saeedpour, founder of the Kurdish Library and the Kurdish Museum of New York and editor of Kurdish Life and the International Journal of Kurdish Studies. Also Holly Cartner, executive director of Human Rights Watch for Europe and Central Asia. We will certainly continue to follow on a daily basis the situation of the Kurds both throughout Europe and in Turkey itself. You are listening to Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now! We’ll be back in a minute.