AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Democracy Now! in Exile, The War and Peace Report, as we break the sound barrier. Today we’re broadcasting on Manhattan Neighborhood Network, channel 56, as we will tomorrow, as well, also on CUNY Television, on community radio stations around the country. This is an unprecedented broadcast, as well as internet radio, WBIX.org, and later in the day and for the rest of time. As long as the internet stays with us, we’ll be archived at webactive.com, so you can hear the program any time that you want to. And, of course, Pacifica station KPFA in Berkeley. And I want to thank all of the Pacifica affiliates who are staying with us for this two-hour daily special on The War and Peace Report

As we talk now about women in Afghanistan, we are joined by Fahima, and she is with Afghan Solidarity, based in Maryland. We’re also staying with Sonali Kolhatkar, who is with the organization Afghan Women’s Association, and she’s based in California, as we talk about the double crisis that women in Afghanistan face, facing the bombing of the United States and its allies, as well as their own government, facing the Taliban.

Fahima, can you talk about what your community is dealing with right now?

FAHIMA: You’re talking about the Afghan community in Afghanistan?

AMY GOODMAN: Yes, yes.

FAHIMA: Well, the Afghan community in Afghanistan has been dealing with this terror and horror for a long, long time. What we have seen in New York two weeks ago and the pain and agony that you went through in New York for the past two weeks, the people of Afghanistan, it is their daily life. We are going through it in Afghanistan every single day. The whole country is ruined. The infrastructure is gone. The precious lives, a lot of them, thousands and thousands of them, every day, is lost. And people are living in grief and horror and under the terror of the Taliban and Osama. And also, I want to tell the American people that we Afghans are peace-loving people who — we can’t contribute to the democracy and freedom of the world a lot, but we Afghans are the victims and the hostages of this terrorist group, which is Osama and Taliban.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s talk a little about history. Until the war against the Soviet Union, or the Soviets invading Afghanistan, the country’s constitution guaranteed basic rights to women, and many devout Muslim women participated in public life. Half of the university students were women. Women made up 40% of the nation’s doctors, 70% of its teachers. Women wore Islamic scarves covering their heads and long dresses, rather than the all-encompassing burqa. Can you then describe what happened as the mujahideen, then the Taliban, rose to power?

FAHIMA: Of course. I lived in Afghanistan. I grew up in Afghanistan. And I was there until I finished school and college there. And I came only 22 years ago out of Afghanistan. The Afghanistan that I remember was a very peaceful country. And we were not a very rich country, but women were — from the beginning of '50s, we were gaining a lot of freedoms and rights. And especially in the ’70s and ’80s, women's rights and freedom was more improved. Women could go to school and colleges. And like you said, we had engineers and doctors and teachers. And believe it or not, in 1960, at the beginning of 1960, we had women in Parliament. And late ’60s, we had women in cabinet and senators, and women were part of the society, and they were participating in the building of Afghanistan.

With the invasion of the Soviet Union in '79, there were several groups formed, which they were later called mujahideen. Mujahideen were the war groups who were fighting the Soviets. Of course, the people of Afghanistan also hated the invasion of Soviets, and they fought the Soviets. But these groups called the mujahideen, they used the name of Islam. And even then, when they were not in power, they would be — they started and committed a lot of crime and atrocity inside of Afghanistan. They would go and burn schools, and they would say that the schools are producing communists and infidels. And they burned houses and spilled acid on women's face. And the schoolgirls and college girls would be abducted and beaten on the street, and even raping. And these things were going on for a long time.

In '92, when the communists — when the chief government collapsed, these mujahideen, they came to power. And the atrocity and the barbarism of the mujahideen was one step further, because now they were in power. And actually, they kind of made it easier for Taliban to come. The Taliban are the same mujahideen, but it's a strict version of them. They were all supported by the U.S. and the U.S. allies. There are billions and billions dollar poured — military support, of course, poured there to train these people. And there were like thousands and thousands religious schools opened there to train these people and teach them the wrong religion. They were teaching — those kids were memorizing Qur’an, which they even don’t understand what Qur’an says, because Qur’an is in Arabic language, and our native language is Pashto and Dari. They could not read our own language, let alone Qur’an. And with this wrong religion that they learned and in the time of war, all what they learned how to use a gun or how to make bomb or go and commit atrocity there. And with that notion, they came to power, and they did the same thing.

For the United States, which always was — we thought it was our friend, because we actually believed that we won the Cold War for the United States. We fought the Soviets so bravely that after the collapse — I mean, the withdrawal of the Soviet Union, the next thing was the fall of Berlin Wall and then the collapse of the whole East Bloc. We thought that they’re our friends and they will help us in rebuilding the country. But as soon as the Soviets was gone, the U.S. packed and left us and left a vacuum there, with those people who only knew how to fight. The people were not trained to — they were not trained to run the country or govern. They don’t know the law, international law or anything. And that vacuum which occurred there from 10 years of war against the Soviets and a few years of civil war, that vacuum was filled by the terrorist Osama and then by the Taliban. And that was a mistake that the U.S. and the U.S. allies did. The billion dollars that they spent on military support, they could have later, when the Soviets was gone, later they could have spent one-tenth of that money. Afghanistan would have been a better place, and the world would have been a safer place today. Because now Afghanistan — because of that vacuum, the terrorists came. Afghanistan became the center of terrorists in the world.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Fahima, who doesn’t want to be further identified than that, a grassroots Afghan activist with Afghan Solidarity. Nazi Etemadi is also on the phone with us. She is with the Aghan Women’s Association of Southern California. Nazi, what about your sisters in Saudi Arabia? I mean, we’re talking about Afghanistan. You yourself are Afghan. But in Saudi Arabia, you have a very serious situation, as well, where women are not allowed to drive cars, can’t work in occupations where they have contact with men, except in medicine. Is this the case, not being able to eat in a public place?

NAZI ETEMADI: I’m really not sure so much about Saudi Arabia, but I know it’s the same strict Islamic rules that are adopted in our country, as well, except I think they do have the right to education, and they do work. But, of course, the cover is always a must, when we — about Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let’s talk about Afghanistan and what you see as the answer. I was looking at a RAWA statement, Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan. I’m not sure how much you agree with them, but their statement says, “The people of Afghanistan have nothing to do with Osama and his accomplices,” and they condemn the attacks in the United States. They say, “[U]nfortunately we must say that it was the government of the United States who supported Pakistani dictator Gen. Zia-ul Haq in creating thousands of religious schools from which the germs of Taliban emerged. In the similar way, as is clear to all, Osama Bin Laden has been the blue-eyed boy of CIA.” And they go on to say, “[W]hat is more painful is that American politicians have not drawn a lesson from their pro-fundamentalist policies in our country and are still supporting this or that fundamentalist band or leader. In our opinion any kind of support to the fundamentalist Taliban and Jehadies is actually trampling democratic, women’s rights and human rights values.” What is your response to that?

NAZI ETEMADI: All of that, but today, I think pointing fingers at this and that is to, like, we’ve got to find a solution for it. And I think the solution for Afghanistan to become a democratic country again, it would be the ex-King Zahir Shah. We need to have a broad-based government which will bring Afghanistan back to its normal level. And that would be represented by all ethnic groups of the country.

AMY GOODMAN: Sonali Kolhatkar of the Afghan Women’s Mission, as well, can you talk about what you want to see done now, as well as Nazi Etemadi?

SONALI KOLHATKAR: Yeah. I think that what’s happening right now in Afghanistan is that for years human rights activists and Afghan activists had been trying to get the attention of the world community to the disaster that was happening. And unfortunately, in the worst circumstances, that has happened, and I think a lot of us aren’t sure whether we’re happy about it. I personally am cringing, because the country that is about to go into Afghanistan and begin some kind of a military action is the United States government, which is notorious for not observing the rights of civilians, for not being careful about how they bomb and when using rebel groups.

What I’m particularly concerned about is that the United States is going to be using the so-called Northern Alliance or the United Front, who are the same mujahideen that Fahima was talking about, you know, a few of these groups who were fighting one another in the early '90s, who are now banded together against the Taliban. They've actually been banded together for a while fighting the Taliban. And they’re eager — eager — for weapons and arms and trainings from the United States. These are our so-called friends from the early '90s. What I'm really, really concerned about is that we are going to use this group of armed men, fundamentalists, very, very fundamentalist, anti-women, anti-human rights men, to fight the Taliban. And we’re going to start the same old cycle of violence in Afghanistan all over again, which happened in the early '90s. So, I'm very, very concerned about what’s going on right now. And I think it’s very important to note that the United States’ funding of these mujahideen were what led to the destruction of women’s rights in the first place. They used the most fundamentalist men that they could find to fight the Soviets, regardless of the fact that one of the consequences of doing that would be the demise of women’s rights in Afghanistan. So it’s really our responsibility to ensure that that never happens again.

AMY GOODMAN: Nazi Etemadi of the Afghan Women’s Association, do you also condemn the mujahideen and Northern Alliance for their treatment of women?

NAZI ETEMADI: I sure do, yes. In fact, I do condemn everything that happened since the fall of the — I think the whole thing happened in around 1974, when the king was toppled by his cousin, President Daoud. The Russian invasion took place just — that was the beginning of it, you know. And, in fact, I worked with an American organization, USAID, and I was told then that I’ve got to change jobs. And I knew that things were going in the wrong direction. So, definitely, and what you see today is not what I used to know what Afghanistan was like.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all very much for being with us. And I want to ask if you’re able to make contact with family and friends in Afghanistan. And, Fahima, are people moving out quickly? Are people you know leaving Afghanistan?

FAHIMA: Yes, I do have contact with a lot of Afghans, my family, my friends and relatives. They’re in Afghanistan. And there are a lot have been trapped there. They cannot get out of Afghanistan, and the situation is just so horrible and so terrifying that they do not know what to do. There are some people who left Afghanistan. Well, contact in Afghanistan is very difficult, but those Afghans who are out of Afghanistan now, we can contact them. And, you know, they are talking about the horrific situation.

But I want to say one more thing, that I do agree with RAWA’s statement very much. I am a very big supporter of RAWA, and I respect them very much. They’re very brave women. And they are helping the refugees there, outside of Afghanistan, a lot. And even now in this crisis, RAWA is there for Afghans, but the need is so great that they need help from outside world. And I would ask everyone who wants to help to help these brave women of Afghanistan for the freedom and rights of women of Afghanistan.

AMY GOODMAN: And where can they be gotten in touch with?

FAHIMA: They can help RAWA directly and go to their site, RAWA.org, or they can go to Afghan Women’s Mission and hear — is it “AfghanWomensMissions.org”:http://www.afghanwomensmission.org/, Sonali? Is that —

SONALI KOLHATKAR: Yes, that’s right.

FAHIMA: Yeah. And they can send their contribution and help the women of Afghanistan and the people of Afghanistan, because it really is – it’s a humanitarian crisis there.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you all for being with us. And also, I want to encourage people to go to webactive.com, and you can put in a search word, “Afghanistan.” We did a show on Afghani women a couple of months ago, and we had on a representative of RAWA who was speaking to us from Pakistan, and it’s — I think it’s very much worth listening to or relistening to if you heard the program. I want to thank you, Fahima, for joining us from Maryland, member of Afghan Solidarity, and Nazi Etemadi and Sonali Kolhatkar of the Afghan Women’s Mission. You are listening to Democracy Now! in Exile's War and Peace Report. When we come back from our break, we'll be joined by a South Asian youth and a representative of the Asian American Legal Defense and Education Fund to talk about what South Asians are facing today in the United States in the wake of the attacks. Stay with us.