AMY GOODMAN: I’m Amy Goodman, as we turn now to the issue of resistance. Last week, as George Bush was about to give his address at the United Nations calling for the bombing of Iraq, there were a number of gatherings around the country to protest war — among them, Washington Square Park in New York City, where thousands gathered. Julia Butterfly was one of them, Julia Butterfly Hill, well known for engaging in a two-year tree sit to protect an ancient redwood in Northern California. She wrote a book about this called The Legacy of Luna: The Story of a Tree, a Woman, and the Struggle to Save the Redwoods. She most recently was in Ecuador, where she was deported. She was protesting a proposed oil pipeline that would penetrate a virgin Andean cloud forest that teems with rare birds, and now has written a new book called One Makes the Difference: Inspiring Actions That Change Our World.

This is the second part of our interview, and in this, I asked Julia, with this what seems like an inevitable march towards war, can people make a difference? What is her philosophy of resistance?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: For me, my philosophies of resistance include and focus more on what I’m for versus what I’m against, that I think that is what our world is mandating we really step into. I have this sense that, as a global community of activists, we’ve gotten so good at defining what we’re against that sometimes what we’re against is beginning to define us. So, how do we — as we point out everything that’s wrong, how do we embody all that’s right? How do we really come from a very conscious, very sacred, very loving, joyful place in the midst of such horror, anger and violence? And that, for me, is not, “OK, I’m going to go do it this day or that day.” It’s every single moment, every single day.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the philosophy of the tree sit? For example, as people see things happening that seem to be just out of everyone’s control, and maybe they’re not, maybe they really can tremendously affect the world. You did something when it looked like events were inevitable. Can you talk about that?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Sure. Tree sits are a perfect example of that philosophy of resistance, in that they’re there to point out the problem of a beautiful place becoming a product, and what happens to the place and the people who live there and the animals who live there in that process. And at the same time, they stand for something. They stand for convictions. They stand for willing to defy the odds. They stand for believing in oneself as being a part of world change. So they really stand for a lot of beautiful things.

And for me, the tree sit came about because I knew of nothing else to do in that moment, when I had never been an activist before. I didn’t really know how to be an activist. I grew up with two brothers and no sisters. I’ve climbed trees. It was all I knew to do. And I really encourage people from that story to not go, “Oh, well, I could never do that,” because if you had asked me when I was standing at the bottom of Luna, “Do you realize you’re going to live up there for the next two years?” I would have went running, screaming in the opposite direction, because life doesn’t do it that way. It’s moment by moment, choice by choice. And when I went up, I thought I’d be there three weeks to a month, and it turned into two years. And I really think that’s the beauty of really becoming what it is we want the world to see and the world that we want to see.

AMY GOODMAN: When you say, “And then I was there for two years,” for a moment, if you could just go back to that place? What was it like?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: The first three months of the tree sit were the most difficult, because I was extremely underprepared. I was assaulted on every level, physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually. There were moments when I was literally in the fetal position, rocking back and forth and crying. I climbed up in the worst winter in recorded history of California. The company tried numerous risks to my life to get me down.

AMY GOODMAN: The company?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: The company — I’m sorry — the company being Pacific Lumber Maxxam Corporation.

AMY GOODMAN: Owned by Charles Hurwitz.

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Owned by Charles Hurwitz, who has a long history of violating laws, manipulating the stock markets. As we’re seeing with all these scandals with Enron and other corporations right now, he has managed to skip free, even though he’s done many of the same things. He has a long history of profit over people and places. This was the struggle.

For me, the hardest part, though, of being in the tree sit was actually living through an active logging plan. A lot of people have an image, if they hear about a woman who lived in a tree, of this fairy tale forest and my sitting in the lotus position, contemplating my navel and the meaning of the universe, and coming to all these profound insights through that experience. And that would have been great, but that wasn’t my experience. And I learned my lessons through sitting through an active logging plan. I learned my lessons through having men at the base of the tree with large chainsaws threatening my life, and having to find another way to approach them that would hopefully create a permanent change.

AMY GOODMAN: What was the way?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: The way, for me, was the hardest path I’ve ever taken, and that’s the way of love. When people hear the word “love” and “spirituality,” they oftentimes think it’s something foofoo or new age or airy-fairy. These are some of the words I get thrown at me a lot of times. But courage, the root word for “courage” is coeur, which means heart. The ability to care and put care into action is the most courageous act any one person will take in the world. And for me, that’s really empowering, even though it’s extremely difficult, because it’s in this moment I can take the most courageous act I can. I can think through a place of connection, empathy, compassion, and yet commitment and convictions that won’t back down from the truth.

AMY GOODMAN: And so, how did you do it in those cases when men have chainsaws and they’re threatening to cut down the tree that you’re very high up in?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Well, what I started realizing pretty early on is that just as I had to challenge myself with labels and stereotypes when I said the word “logger,” I had to really think about, “What do I even taste in my mouth when I say that word?” I realized that they, too, had a label and a stereotype of me. I always joke with people. I always say, “Yes, I am a dirty, tree-hugging — excuse me, dirty, tree-hugging, granola-munching tofu-eating, foofoo, new-ager hippie, but I’m also a lot more than that.” And I think that’s kind of their stereotype, if I had — must have dreadlocks and wear a lot of hemp clothes and all those things, so the — not that any of those are bad, but this stereotype made them think that I was something other than human.

And the first way I reached out to them was literally sending down a tree — excuse me, sending down the tree this picture that was taken of me, of this party I went to a couple — about six months before I went into the tree, where I was all dressed up and was wearing makeup. And I sent it down with the weight of granola in a Ziploc bag, so that they could see that just because I eat granola doesn’t mean I’m a stereotype. And it was very funny, because they said, “Why did you send down this picture?” And I said, “That’s me.” And they said, “No, it’s not.” And I said, “Yes, it is.” They said, “No, it’s not.” And I said, “Yes.” They said, “What are you doing up in a tree then?” And what was really funny was then this joke came out of it that what I — then they said, “Do you have a boyfriend?” And I said, “No.” And they said, “Well, do you have a girlfriend?” And I said, “No, I have a tree. I don’t need either.” And then they said, “Well, that’s the problem. You just need a good logger. He likes the forest. You like the forest. He likes to be outside. You like to be outside.” And it was — it just became this joke that put us back on a human level.

And I think that’s really what it’s all about. Whether we like it or not, all of us, every single person, shares this same tiny little planet together. And when we, as conscious activists, can come from that place of not getting caught up in the hate and violence of others, that’s the kind of change that Gandhi was a part of and Martin Luther King Jr. was a part of and Rosa Parks, and the list goes on and on. And that’s the kind of change that lasts throughout history, I believe.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, since you’ve come down from the tree — and by the way, what was that like, coming down?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Oh my goodness. Coming down was intense. It was every emotion and some emotions I didn’t even know existed, all hitting me at once. I felt, honestly, a little bipolar there for a minute, because one minute I would be crying, and the next minute I’d be laughing, the next minute crying, the next minute laughing. It was just back and forth, back and forth, because I was leaving the best friend and the best teacher I’ve ever had. I was coming down to a world that saw me as something other than me.

I wrote this poem, and I’ll just give you a real quick beginning of it. The world stops and holds its breath and wonders, “What will she do? What does she see? What will she say?” as if she is something other than me.

And that was a lot of what I was feeling like. I was feeling very human, very vulnerable, very me, in a world that didn’t acknowledge that anymore, having to struggle with the responsibility of being a spokesperson for a movement of things that I care deeply about, struggling with: How am I going to uphold integrity now that I’m back down on the ground, and yet really excited to be able to kneel and kiss Mother Earth again?

AMY GOODMAN: When you were up in the tree, there were major storms. You talked about it being the worst winter. What did that mean? How did you protect yourself?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: There wasn’t much protection. By the time my roof made of tarps was shredded, I just literally wrapped up in a tarp like a burrito and prayed, I think, harder than I’ve ever prayed in my life. There wasn’t — there was just really nothing to do, but to —

AMY GOODMAN: Were you on a platform like the size of this table?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Yes, about four-by-six feet, a tiny platform. And I just held on to Luna, coming through the platform, held on to Luna with all I had. But that storm really taught me a powerful lesson that has applied in many experiences since coming down. I was trying so hard to stay alive that my whole body was clenched up, and I was, “I don’t want to die. I don’t want to die. I don’t want to die,” I mean, like a mantra, and praying like mad, with the storm howling and raging. But I was trying so hard to stay strong that I was dying. I was falling apart. And the trees spoke to me and said, “Julia, think of the trees in the storm.” And as I was thinking of that, the trees — I was seeing them bending and flowing, and I realized that’s what I had to do, the way to make it through the storms of life. And this comes into play a lot in activism, because the storms rage if you’re willing to stand up for what you believe in. But how do you stay rooted in your beliefs while being flexible to bend with the storms that blow through? And time and time again, in the tree and since coming down, that lesson has helped me to survive some pretty intense experiences.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Julia Butterfly Hill. You’ve written two books since then, The Legacy of Luna: The Story of a Tree, a Woman, and the Struggle to Save the Redwoods, and now One Makes the Difference: Inspiring Actions That Change Our World. What are some of those actions that have inspired you?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: I think I’ll begin just by letting the listeners know that both of these books are printed on 100% postconsumer recycled paper, no chlorine bleach, which causes cancer, and all soy-based plant ink, so there’s no toxins in the inks. And the reason I say that is because, to me, we have to do that as conscious activists. We have to make sure our consciousness is on every level. And that’s what inspires me, when I find people who are holding that desire in their hearts to be as conscious as they can.

I’ve met numerous people from around the world since coming down, one a 14-year-old girl, young woman, who went to her supervisors when her air became so polluted that she and all of her peers were having to get bronchial inhalers in order to breathe the air. And she lives in a poor community. She’s an African American woman. And for those who can’t afford the bronchial inhalers, they’re dying. And when no one would do anything, she launched this march to reclaim her air in honor of a 9-year-old boy who died, who lived right next to a bus station and died from lung failure, from breathing in all the toxins from the buses. By the time the march was done, after being told by community members, government agencies and even family members and parents that she couldn’t do anything — she’s too young, she’s an African American woman, no one’s going to listen to her — she said, “Not a good enough answer. I’m going to do something.” By the time the march was done, the city government passed an anti-idling law so that these buses and diesel trucks and things can’t idle, spewing all those fumes out. And they passed a law that they were going to phase out all of their buses in the city to nonpolluting buses, to alternative energies, to clean burning gas and electricity. So, as a 14-year-old young woman, she took the answer no and turned it into a yes.

AMY GOODMAN: What’s the 5-R mantra?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: The 5-R mantra is based on the reduce, reuse, recycle model. And the reason I turned it into a 5-R mantra is because we’ve kind of become passé about it. And I think part of the reason we have is that we’ve been really conditioned to just think, “Recycle, recycle, recycle.” And these three lessons, if we, especially as citizens of the United States, would carry these out, we would affect many things, including war over resources, because the first step is reduce. It’s not recycle, recycle, recycle, but our country is addicted to buying things. It’s addicted to new. It’s addicted to disposability. It’s in all of our water bottles. It’s in the coffee cups when we go to the store. It’s everywhere we turn. And we’ve been kind of numbed into falling right into play.

So, I thought, “Well, how can I — how can I bring this back in a way that inspires people to want to rethink these things?” So, the first one that came to me was respect, that if we have a true understanding of respect, we don’t see a separation from ourselves and the world that we live in. And automatically, when we begin to respect this connection and interdependency, we automatically begin to rethink every single action. We look at everything in our lives and say, “Am I doing this action with the highest consciousness? And if not, how do I change it? And if I am, how do I celebrate it?” And that automatically begins into reducing our impact on the Earth and on our communities, which then leads the next step being the reuse, and the final thing being recycle.

And I believe that if we all implement that in our daily lives, the change would be profound. I find that even in the most conscious of communities of activists, we come up with excuses why we’re sitting there saying it’s not OK to drill oil in Alaska, while we’re eating our food in a Styrofoam to-go container, and those Styrofoams — what made that Styrofoam; where we come up with excuses for getting our smoothie in a petroleum-based plastic cup, because we’re too busy being an activist; that we say, “No, don’t cut down any more forest,” but we have our non-shade-grown, nonorganic, non-fair trade coffee in a paper cup with a plastic lid. And people sometimes say, “Well, that’s the small stuff, Julia. I don’t even know why you’re talking about it.” But it’s profound. And I have some very real statistics around it, if you’d like to hear them.

AMY GOODMAN: Like what?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: If a person is — something as simple as a mug. If a person is to reuse — would reuse their own mug a thousand times — and most of us, as people in the United States, will do that in three to four months tops, with the amount of coffees, teas, smoothies, waters, all those things we get — if we reuse it a thousand times — this includes the energy in washing it and eventually putting it to bed, putting that product to rest — using it a thousand times, in that own choice, you will have reduced your own energy use by 98%, in that one choice. You’ll have reduced your own greenhouse gas emissions by 29% in that one choice. You’ll have reduced your own volatile air particulates, which are the particulates that go into the air that are causing cancer, that are causing lung problems, that are causing air pollution, by 88%. The list goes on.

But those three powerful statistics, that are — that our world is dealing with, energy and global warming, and literally in something as simple as reusing a mug, you make a profound impact. And for me, that’s why I talk about — a lot about the everyday choices, because when we can take that power back, we realize every moment of every day we make choices. Every single choice changes the world. We are all change agents. Are we going to be conscious or unconscious? Are we going to take steps towards healing or steps towards destroying? If we want to stomp and scream and demand a better world from our government officials and corporations in our daily lives, we better be building a solid foundation to stomp on.

AMY GOODMAN: Julia Butterfly Hill, when someone says they’re looking at the world now, President Bush is saying that he will continue to bomb Iraq. What is a story that comes to your mind of someone who has made a difference in an action that he or she was involved with, when people see, no matter what they do, the actions that they protest seem to continue and continue to unfold?

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Wow, there’s so many. I have to make my mind thinking of one.

AMY GOODMAN: You can name a few. You can think a few.

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Let’s see, there’s so many people that I’ve met that have stood up against the odds, and many of them are young people. And I think the reason I’m finding it in young people is because they have less and less to lose. They don’t have a house mortgage. They don’t have a car payment. And, oh, by the way, they’re inheriting a world where they can’t breathe the air, drink the water or eat the food. And so, they’re more and more rising to the occasion and saying our so-called leaders are failing us, so we’re going to become the leaders. We’re taking our future back into our own hands.

A 15-year-old young woman from Ohio, there was an oil pipeline going through her backyard, a gas pipeline. It was on her family farm. It’s been in her family for generations. She’s very, very quiet. If you talk to her, she has a hard time looking you in the eyes. And she almost single-handedly stopped the gas pipeline from going through her backyard, when she was told, once again, she’s young, she’s a woman, she can’t stop it.

A man — in the war on Iraq, we know that lots of it has to do around oil. We see a young man who has really single — like, is pushing this huge campaign across the country for veggie oil vehicles. I was just riding in a hydrogen fuel cell car the other day. Every single day, I meet people who are part of the solutions right now.

AMY GOODMAN: Finally, you’re headed back to California to honor another person involved with a tree sit.

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: That’s right. It’s really exciting for me, because tree sits have been going on, as I mentioned, for years before I ever climbed Luna, and have continued all over the country and around the world since I’ve come down, in Oregon and in California, predominantly, in this country, but all over the world. There’s a young woman by the name of Remedy, who’s been sitting in a tree in the Freshwater community that has been hammered by logging. This is a place of endangered species and beautiful people. She climbed up into the tree six months ago, as of September 23rd, and I’ll be there to support her incredible act of courage, and, through that, supporting the actions that continue in California, not only in the direct action front, but we are also working on a ballot initiative for citizens of California to vote to protect our old growth, since we have government officials who seem to not be able to protect these heritage trees.

AMY GOODMAN: Julia Butterfly, thank you very much for joining us.

JULIA BUTTERFLY HILL: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: Julia Butterfly Hill. Her new book is One Makes the Difference: Inspiring Actions That Change Our World. And if you’d like to order a video cassette copy of today’s program, you can call 1-800-881-2359. That’s 1-800-881-2359. You’re listening to Democracy Now! Back in a minute.