AMY GOODMAN: And now to our special with the legendary civil rights singers Sweet Honey in the Rock.

SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK: [performing “Down by the Riverside”]

Gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside, down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
I’m gonna lay down my sword and shield
Down by the riverside
Ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more

I’m gonna lay down the bombs and guns
Way down by the riverside, down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
I’m gonna lay down the bombs and guns
Down by the riverside
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more

I’m gonna join hands the whole world round
Down by the riverside, down by the riverside
Down by the riverside
I’m gonna reach out and join hands
Down by the riverside
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more
Ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study war no more
I ain’t gonna study
I ain’t gonna study
I ain’t gonna study
I ain’t gonna study
I ain’t gonna study
I ain’t gonna study war no more.

AMY GOODMAN: Sweet Honey in the Rock, the legendary musical group, live in our firehouse studios here on Democracy Now!, “Breaking the Sound Barrier.” I’m Amy Goodman.

Celebrating 30 years together, it was 1973 when Bernice Johnson Reagon brought together a group of female singers to form an a capella group. At the time, Dr. Reagon was the music director of the old D.C. Black Repertory Theater Company. The first song they practiced was called “Sweet Honey in the Rock,” the tune referring to the parable that spoke of a land so rich that when rocks were cracked open, honey flowed from them. They decided to take that name as their own.

Dr. Reagon was an original member of the SNCC Freedom Singers, also organized the Atlanta-based Harambee Singers, an ensemble of female vocalists who performed as part of the civil rights struggles of the ’60s and the ’70s.

Since 1973, Sweet Honey in the Rock has reinvented a capella music and introduced a generation to the roots of African American music, gospel, spirituals and hymns, as well as blues and jazz. The group has released 18 albums and has toured the world. They won a Grammy Award in 1989 for work on the recording Vision Shared: A Tribute to Woody Guthrie and Leadbelly.

They’ve even published a book examining a history of the group and the times. Alice Walker wrote an introduction to their book, We Who Believe in Freedom. In it, she says, “There is a voice rising, clear and purposeful, from the collective throat of the group. It sings of Soweto. It sings of Chile. It remembers Biko. It recalls Martin. It affirms love between women. It tells us we are wearing clothing that cost somebody’s life. It warns us that the jobs we are often forced to take contaminate and destroy us. It tells us we do not own our children. It urges us to acknowledge the suffering, yes, but to savor the beauty of life and the joy. Under this voice, the world begins to expand, and, paradoxically, to grow smaller. We stand on the shore, here in North America, a land that we love through great sadness and pain, and we gaze into the eyes and souls of folks we know in South Africa, Latin America, the Philippines, El Salvador, Israel and Palestine.” Those, the words of Alice Walker describing Sweet Honey in the Rock.

Over the years, the group’s membership has included 22 women. The current ensemble, joining us today, has been together for quite a long time: Bernice Johnson Reagon, Ysaye Maria Barnwell, Aisha Kahlil, Carol Maillard, Nitanju Bolade Casel, and Shirley Childress Johnson is the signer today and a regular part of the group. It’s our pleasure to have you all in the firehouse studios.

SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK: Thank you.

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: Thank you. We’re very happy to be here.

AMY GOODMAN: So, here we are together in very trying times. And you really were born of times like these. Dr. Bernice Johnson Reagon, can you talk about how you pulled Sweet Honey in the Rock together?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: Black people come to this land as slaves. So, there’s something in the African American legacy in this land that has to do with trying to find yourself and find your path in the middle of struggle, in an environment that wants you to be and do something else. And so, Sweet Honey in the Rock, naturally, in being true to the legacy of struggle, sort of embraces or stands in the foundation of that history. And I come out of the civil rights movement, and my function as a singer became clear in jail and in rallies. And I think Sweet Honey actually holds a kind of integrity with that legacy of struggle and culture and art.

AMY GOODMAN: The media today has forgotten history, almost wipes it completely out. When you were with the SNCC Freedom Singers, can you talk about who they were and how you came into this movement?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: But first, it is not simply the media that wipes out history. The culture is ahistorical. The culture we live in, the contemporary culture, pretends that what is is the only thing that is. When I say that Sweet Honey has integrity with the movement of struggle, I’m really talking about a long history of struggle, which includes the civil rights movement. I’m born in Albany, Georgia. And in 1961, I began to be involved in the civil rights movement in my hometown. And the Freedom Singers are actually formed because of the power of singing in the Albany, Georgia, movement by Cordell Reagon. And our first tour began in 1962.

AMY GOODMAN: Where did you first sing with them?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: That kind of line is difficult, because if you go from singing in your first rallies after your first march to, say, the first formal concert of the Freedom Singers, there isn’t a line that stops. But I think probably December 31st, 1962, we performed at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana to a combined convention of YMCA and YWCA college chapters. And our first tour was booked from those chapters. And that booking was by Ella Baker, who was on the board of the YWCA in New York.

AMY GOODMAN: Talking to Bernice Johnson Reagon and her sister singers in Sweet Honey in the Rock. And you can go to our website at www.democracynow.org — that’s www.democracynow.org — for more information. We’ll return with them in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “This Is a Mean World,” Sweet Honey in the Rock, our special today. Their website, SweetHoney.com. I’m Amy Goodman, as we return with my question to Bernice Johnson Reagon, the group’s founder.

AMY GOODMAN: And what was singing like during those times? For young people who are perhaps listening now, maybe 15, 16, 17 years old, even the '60s and ’70s are far away. What was it like in the times when — well, you're talking about singing at the University of Illinois. You’re talking about singing in places where Blacks and whites couldn’t even be together.

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: I’m careful about that kind of comparison. One, it sounds as if I am antiquated, coming from some ancient place where things used to really be great. I can’t stand old people who say that. So, somehow, I have to sort of talk about the civil rights movement, and not talk about it in a way as if it’s knocking what is happening today, because I feel like that’s probably not helpful.

There is a difference in the approach Sweet Honey uses in terms of the way we use our voices. One, when you sound your voice, you are supposed to be using your life energy to produce that sound. To all intents and purposes, you should disappear, and the only thing that’s there is the sound. That creates a very, very powerful sound. Now, the difference between that and a lot of the contemporary music is that many of our contemporary singers make as little sound as possible, every once in a while giving you flashes of the potential power. But in the civil rights movement, in jails, in rallies, the sound was a way of announcing a community. And you actually, when you sang, could change the air you stood in for two or three blocks, and no microphones. And in changing that air, anybody who walked toward you, including the police, would be walking into your sound, and they would get to you long before they would get to your body. And I think that might be an image that helps to sort of feel the difference.

But it’s very hard to describe, because Sweet Honey is a microphone group. So, if you look at Sweet Honey now and you look at the civil rights movement, singing then, great difference in the way the voice is used and the way the voice is projected and the way the voice is supposed to cover ground. And so, I think there are real differences. But when I think about it, it is whether or not, when you sing, the only thing that matters is the sound. And if people know that you’re alive, they know you’re alive not because of they are looking at you breathing, but because they’re hearing something that is impacting on their physical body.

AMY GOODMAN: What about the power of singing in jail?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: I learned in jail that I knew how to pick songs. I had always grown up in a church where people — songs would just come up without being announced, and I never knew why somebody would pick one song or another song. And in jail, I was a song leader, and people would never tell me what to sing. They would just say, “Sing a song.” And I realized in jail I actually knew how to lay a song on a situation. So, songs become a voice. They become a way of talking, communicating.

Songs also in jail was a way of patching things together that were unpatchable together. A lot of people think, in struggle, civil rights movement struggle, there was great resonance and harmony. And the opposite is the case. What there was was a coming together on some issues. But holding together through an action was a real challenge, and without music, it would not have been possible.

AMY GOODMAN: Your new record, your new CD, The Women Gather, Carol Maillard, I was wondering if you could introduce it?

CAROL MAILLARD: Certainly, certainly. “The Women Gather” is a song that talks about the feelings of women who have lost their loved ones due to senseless violence. I was really struck by what happened after Columbine, when the parents in the neighborhoods started to say, “Oh, you know, that kind of thing doesn’t happen here. You know, we anticipate it happening in other parts of the world or other neighborhoods,” you know, which they generally mean urban neighborhoods where they don’t live. And you find that violence and things that just really, I think, hurt the spirit really can happen anywhere. And the song says it doesn’t matter where you live in. It could be someone so close to you that is as close as — even as your own very breath, your mother, your brother, your sister, lover. Somebody who’s very important to you can be affected, and where you live does not protect you from that kind of a feeling and experience.

AMY GOODMAN: Why don’t we take a listen? “Women Gather.”

SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK: [performing “The Women Gather”]

He was her only child, her baby boy
She was his second daughter, a father’s pride and joy
Somebody’s mother, brother, best friend, sister, lover
Maybe an A-1 student running, hiding, taking cover

The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans
It doesn’t matter where you’re living
The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans

People say, “Not in this neighborhood!
It doesn’t happen here!
Our kids have everything
What do we have to fear?”
But what about the ones who say, “This happens every day;
Drugs and violence take our children
How much more death can come our way?”

The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans
It doesn’t matter where you’re living
The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans

Don’t you know?
Some bullets find their targets
Bombs can take you right on cue
Some in the hands of babies
Or officials and their crew
Claimed the brother had a gun
She fit the profile in my book
Running, hiding, taking cover, didn’t take the time to look
Somebody’s mother, brother, best friend, sister, lover

The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans
It doesn’t matter where you’re living
The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans
It doesn’t matter where you’re living
The women gather crying tears that fill a million oceans
It doesn’t matter where you’re living
It doesn’t matter
It doesn’t matter
It doesn’t matter where you’re living

AMY GOODMAN: “The Women Gather,” the name of the newest CD of Sweet Honey in the Rock. You’ve been together for a very long time. Even the newest member of the group, Nitanju, has been here for, what? Eighteen years, you’ve been together, the newest member of the group. That’s pretty amazing. And it’s amazing that the group, overall, Sweet Honey, has been together for 30 years. What is the glue that keeps you together and keeps this group going?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: I think there is the music itself and the process of making music, and that it’s a group of singers where the voice is the primary instrument. There’s also being able to find African American women singers who are passionate about being socially conscious, community-based women, and also just unrelenting, unyielding hard work.

YSAYE MARIA BARNWELL: And brilliant leadership.

CAROL MAILLARD: Yeah. [inaudible]

YSAYE MARIA BARNWELL: Brilliant leadership on the part of Bernice Johnson Reagon.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re leaving. Is that right?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: Mm-hmm.

AMY GOODMAN: Leaving the group?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: Mm-hmm.

AMY GOODMAN: What are you going to be doing?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: I don’t know. It doesn’t matter.

AMY GOODMAN: What matters?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: That if you — if you are alive and you are not seduced by your importance, you actually can hear sometimes something saying, “You can’t carry this load at this intensity. If you paid attention, you’d just step into a track that moved at a slightly different pace.” So there’s something about it that feels as if I’m listening to the rhythm of the universe speaking to me both about how I can go on and how Sweet Honey can go on. And one of the things we’re doing in this 30-year period is celebrating the survival of the group. But a lot of the internal work is trying to learn how to help create those sea changes, so that something that appears to stop does not stop the work. And there are no real promises. There’s just a commitment to go on, even as I step aside. And I find it very much like almost all of the work I’ve ever done in my life. And I don’t need to know what’s on the other side. And I find it interesting. People say, “What are you going to do afterwards?” And it’s just not an issue for me, because I must — I live by taking steps, and I do what’s in front of me. And this is in front of me, so I surrender to it.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you introduce the song “Greed”?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: I was thinking about human beings’ capacity for evil and wondering if some of the things I saw human beings doing to each other was someplace within me. I mean, if they were human and I was human, I mean, could I actually ever do something like that? Is there something in the nature of human beings that means you could just do the most unspeakable stuff about other people? And I began to, like, wonder: What is this disorder in the universe? What is this thing that seems to sometimes make human beings get so lopsided in relationship to each other and in relationship to the world that supports them?

And I kept coming up with greed, that somehow there is something about needing more than you need, not only wanting more than you need, but actually we’re in a culture where if you don’t have more than you need, you’re a failure. And it is surplus possession that is indicative of success in a society. And there’s something very, very wrong with that. And there’s a lot of destruction behind it. And so, first I wrote “Greed” as a prose poem, and then I wondered if I could sing it.

SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK: [performing “Greed”]

I been thinking about how to talk about Greed.
I been thinking about how to talk about Greed.
I been wonderin’ if I could sing about Greed.
Try’n’ to find a way to talk about Greed.

Greed is a poison rising in the land.
The soul of the people twisted in its command.
It moves like a virus seeking out ev’ryone.
Greed never stops its work, is never, ever done.
A creeping, choking, killing, invading ev’rywhere,
There is really no escaping Greed’s sneaky snare.

I been trying to think about how to talk about Greed.
I been trying to think about how to talk about Greed.
I been wonderin’ if I could sing about Greed.
Try’n’ to find a way to talk about Greed.

Not partial to gender, or your sexual desires,
All it wants is you to want to own, to possess and to buy.
Nothing seems to stop it once it enters your soul.
Has you buying anything, spending out of control.

I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been wonderin’ if I could sing about Greed.
Try’n’ to find a way to talk about Greed.

Greed’s driven men, created slavery.
Black men, women and children became somebody’s property.
It’s been around a long time since before we began.
Before this was a nation, Greed drove people to this land.

Maybe you don’t know exactly what I mean.
You don’t really want to know about your and my Greed.
You may wonder whether you’re infected by Greed.
If you have to ask, then this song you really need.
Greed is sneaky, hard to detect in myself.
I see it so clearly in everybody else.

I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been wonderin’ if I could sing about Greed.
Try’n’ to find a way to talk about Greed.

Now, I can see it in you. You can see it in me.
We can see it in big corporations,
all throughout the government.
See it in the banks, I can see it in the military.
See it in the church, I can see it in my neighbor.
It all shows up clearly, you and you and your greed.

I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
I been wonderin’ if I could sing about Greed.
Try’n’ to find a way to talk about Greed.
I’m trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
Trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
Trying to find a way to talk about Greed.
Trying to find a way to talk about Greed.

AMY GOODMAN: Sweet Honey in the Rock singing “Greed.” You were in Seattle for the Battle of Seattle?

BERNICE JOHNSON REAGON: We were in Seattle for the WTO organization. And it was really a very, very important effort to be able to participate in a growing voice that said there really may be these people in the world who are getting together and making policy impacting on lives of people and the environment who answer to no constituency, but they cannot gather without witnesses. There needs to be some way in which people say, “I know you’re doing this, and I know it is not consistent with anything we’ve ever talked about in terms of democracy.”

AMY GOODMAN: Aisha Kahlil, you have been with the group for how long?

AISHA KAHLIL: Since 1981.

AMY GOODMAN: 1981. How did you come to Sweet Honey in the Rock?

AISHA KAHLIL: Well, I had come to Washington, D.C., from New York, where I was living. And I came through to work with a group called Brother Ahh and the Sounds of Awareness as a singer, dancer and percussionist, going on a tour to Africa and Europe. And then, midway through rehearsals, the tour fell through, and I ended up kind of being in Washington. So, I got several jobs. I got a job working at the — teaching of the D.C. Repertory Theater. I got a job teaching at the kung fu studio, of dance. And then I got a job at the health food restaurant. And that’s where I met Evelyn Maria Harris, who was a member at the time. And somehow she came over to me and asked me about auditioning, and which I did. I came to Sweet Honey and auditioned, and I’ve been with the group ever since.

AMY GOODMAN: And what has it meant in your life?

AISHA KAHLIL: Oh, it’s meant everything. It’s meant complete evolution for me. It’s been quite a bit of growth. And it’s just a way of life, of being conscientious and totally opening up more and more doors inside of yourself, about your own evolution and how you’re going to live your life and being committed to that.

AMY GOODMAN: Your sister is also in the group?

AISHA KAHLIL: Mm-hmm.

AMY GOODMAN: The youngest member of Sweet Honey in the Rock. How did you bring her into it? Or did you?

AISHA KAHLIL: Well, she was living in Senegal at the time, in Africa. And it was kind of time for her to come back home. We all went — we were like, “Come home. Either you come home, or I’m going over there.” So, I had gotten involved in Sweet Honey. I was telling her about it. And so, she finally did come home. And we were kind of wondering what we’re going to do. So, I said, “Well, come down to Sweet Honey and audition,” the same way Evelyn pulled me. So, she did. And at first, she didn’t want to join. But eventually we kind of talked her into it. And she’s been here ever since.

AMY GOODMAN: Nitanju Bolade Casel.

NITANJU BOLADE CASEL: Yes?

AMY GOODMAN: How long did you live in Africa, in Senegal?

NITANJU BOLADE CASEL: For about four-and-a-half years.

AMY GOODMAN: And what brought you there?

NITANJU BOLADE CASEL: Vacation. Well —

AMY GOODMAN: May we all have such long vacations.

NITANJU BOLADE CASEL: I was living in Boston before I went, and I was the artistic director of a company called the Art of Black Dance and Music. And it’s actually really interesting to me, because I find that Aisha and I, we’re 11 months apart, and through our lives we go through very similar situations, even though we may not be living even in the same state. So, when she came to Washington, I think it was 1981 or 1980, somewhere around there. Around the same time, I was in Boston, and I was artistic director of this company. But at the same time, I was singing with a Haitian band, and we were going to go on tour. And so I quit all of my teaching jobs, packed up this trunk, and I was ready to go on tour, and the promoter went to Haiti and never returned. And so, the director of the dance company I was in said, “Well, Nitanju, since you’re all packed…” One of our teachers, who was from Senegal, was going home. And she said, “Why don’t you go with him and do research for the company for six weeks?” I said, “Wonderful. I will go.” And I went and started living with a family and just got totally into being there. And around the fourth and fifth week, I had no desire to return to Boston and expressed that to him. His name was Raymond Sylla from Guinea, grew up in Senegal. And he got me a job. And so I just stayed, you know, as an artist, singing, dancing, doing research. And I stayed there for almost five years.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you describe “Run”?

NITANJU BOLADE CASEL: “Run” is a song that I wrote that actually had been brewing for a long time. When I was in Boston, a friend of mine — she wasn’t even really a friend at that time; she was another dancer that I was just getting to know — came to my apartment one night, knocking on the door, and said that her boyfriend was beating her up, and she needed a place to stay. And I let her in. And we are best friends to this day. And she really believes that her making a move was what saved her life. And it’s interesting, because we still talk about that time. You know, she still — it’s very present in her spirit. You know, she’s married now. She has children. But that particular point in her life is a very dark one.

And then, just over time, I would hear so many stories about especially women in a situation that has just become terrifying. And I would just want them so badly to leave, and I would just sit there and say, “Oh, if I could just give them a plan of how to do this or just something.” And so, just out of that anger about the situation, that it even exists, that there is just somewhere written that, you know, men could beat women with a stick, or only so wide, or just the notion that you could live with someone or be with someone who would just destroy your life like this, and then somehow call it love and somehow apologize and somehow turn you all around so you feel like you have to keep returning to it. So, that’s where the song grew out of.

AMY GOODMAN: Would you all sing it?

SWEET HONEY IN THE ROCK: [performing “Run”]

No one has the right (To hurt me)
Especially when they say (They love me)
Apologies dont make (Anything better)
So I’ll take my love and my life (And leave today)

Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end
Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end

I am gonna run far away from here
No more cussin’, no more fighting, and living in fear
I am gonna run far away from you
I have come to my senses and I dont need you

I am gonna run, gonna leave you today
'Cause I know there's got to be a better way
I am gonna run, take my children’s hand
We are leaving this nightmare as fast as we can

I don’t even know, in which direction I should go
But I’m sure it’s the right thing to do, it’s time to make a move
The first time I was shoved, I shoulda been out of the door
But I accepted the apologies, opened myself up for more

Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to live this way, I’m leaving you today
Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to suffer anymore, I’m walking right out of that door

Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end
Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end

Some of my so-called friends advised me to stick around
They’re not the ones getting burned, slapped or beaten down to the ground
They say financial security is hard to come by for a woman like me
And for my children, I need a good home, so I should sacrifice ’til their grown

Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to suffer anymore, I’m walking right out of that door
Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to live this way, I’m leaving you today

I am gonna run far away from here
No more cussin’, no more fighting, and living in fear
I am gonna run far away from you
I have come to my senses and I dont need you

I am gonna run, gonna leave you today
'Cause I know there's got to be a better way
I am gonna run, take my children’s hand
We are leaving this nightmare as fast as we can

Now, I don’t blame myself for the present situation
For this kind of behavior, there is no justification
I’m looking ahead to the future, I won’t forget the past
I won’t repeat this part of my life, it’s over at last!

Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to suffer anymore, I’m walking right out of that door, that door, that door
Abuses, excuses, abuses, excuse me!
I don’t have to live this way, I’m leaving you today

I am gonna run far away from here
No more cussin’, no more fighting, and living in fear
I am gonna run far away from you
I have come to my senses and I dont need you

I am gonna run, gonna leave you today
'Cause I know there's got to be a better way
I am gonna run, take my children’s hand
We are leaving this nightmare as fast as we can

Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end
Run to a shelter, run to a friend
Run for my life before it comes to an end

I’m gonna run, you better run, she’d better run
Don’t stay another day, not another minute
Not another hour, not another second, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
I’m gonna run, I’m gonna run
I’m gonna run run run!

AMY GOODMAN: Sweet Honey in the Rock, our hour special here on Democracy Now! Their website, Sweethoney.com. Ours is democracynow.org. If you’d like to get a video copy of today’s program, you can call 1-800-881-2359. That’s 1-800-881-2359. This special edition of Democracy Now! was directed by Uri Gal-Ed, edited by Elizabeth Press. Democracy Now! is produced by Kris Abrams, Mike Burke, Angie Karran, Sharif Abdel Kouddous, Ana Nogueira. Mike Di Filippo is our engineer. Angela Alston, Emily Kunstler, Orlando Richards, Simba Russeau, Rafael de la Uz, Gabrielle Weiss, Jonny Sender, Karen Ranucci, Fatima Mojaddidy, Denis Moynihan, Jenny Filippazzo, Mark Mallory and Eddie Stein also worked on today’s program. Tomorrow on Democracy Now!, Part 2 of our interview with Sweet Honey in the Rock. They’ll sing a song we’ve played many times in recent days on Democracy Now!, “Would You Harbor Me?” I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for listening.