AMY GOODMAN: To talk about the story, we are joined by an award-winning documentary filmmaker, Jamie Doran, who made the film Guinea Pig Kids. He joins us on the phone from London. Here in New York we’re joined by Vera Sharav of the Alliance for Human Research Protection and we welcome you both to Democracy Now! Jamie Doran, let’s begin with you. Tell us the story of your documentary, Guinea Pig Kids.

JAMIE DORAN: Basically, it began when someone told me about — I was given a very rough version of the story, and I took it for granted that we were talking about some developing country or whatever — I couldn’t believe when it was New York City, and what happens was that I discovered that the ACS were — incidentally, I’m terribly sorry they refused to appear. They also refused to appear in my film which only tells you how much they have to hide. But I discovered the ACS were basically providing children on a conveyor belt process, into children they’ve taken into care. Many of the children incidentally had been taken by force from their parents or guardians and put into either foster homes or children’s homes in the city. One particular home we concentrate on is the Incarnation Children’s Center in Harlem. And we discovered they were carrying out tests which even under federal rules are certainly illegal. You have to be clear, to use foster children in experimentation, it’s prohibited unless there is a direct benefit to those children. You know, what I would have liked to have asked the ACS had they appeared today was what was the benefit of the herpes experiment at Incarnation all about? Why did they give double doses of the measles vaccine in another experiment and why won’t they publish the results? This is the real question. Why won’t they publish the results? The answer we can all guess at.

AMY GOODMAN: On the issue of the herpes experiment, what was it?

JAMIE DORAN: They were actually carrying experiments out on children with HIV linked to herpes, and with absulutely no clear explanation as to any benefit whatsoever it would be to the children. Why were they giving children — the key here is that these children have no — they have been taken from their parents or guardians, and put into the system — effectively, their legal parent is now the ACS. And it’s the ACS that then volunteers them for this program of experimentation, and this is absolutely shocking.

AMY GOODMAN: Tell us about Jacqueline Herger.

JAMIE DORAN: Jacqueline had actually worked at the home — for the Incarnation — for about five years. She simply, you know, loyally carried out giving the drugs to kids, et cetera, never questioned the doctors. The only time she ever questioned it was when she decided to adopt two kids she had grown to love at the home, and she was told she had to carry on the medication that had been insisted upon by Incarnation. She saw them getting more a and more sick, more ill, and decided one day simply to take them off the medication. Of course, the results were astonishing. They became healthy, they became vibrant, great little kids. The results of that, the ACS discovered that she had taken them off the medication, and there was a knock on the door, and the next thing she knew, the children were taken away. Now this despite the fact she brought in private doctors, given them private health care, she’d given them fantastic education. They were taken away, and either put into some foster care home or some children’s home. She doesn’t know. They won’t tell her, and lord knows her biggest fear is that they have been put back on experimentation.

AMY GOODMAN: In your piece, you talk about how her job was to treat the kids with HIV at a New York children’s home. Nobody had told her the drugs she was administering were experimental or highly toxic. And you quote her saying, “We were told that if they were vomiting, if they lost their ability to walk, if they were having diarrhea, if they were dying, then all of this was because of their HIV infection.”

JAMIE DORAN: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: In fact, it was the drugs, you write, that were making the children ill, and the children had been enrolled in the secret trials without their relatives’ or guardians’ knowledge.

JAMIE DORAN: There are enormously serious side effects from these drugs. You should also be clear that we’re talking about up to 20 drugs in a single cocktail given to individual children. We’re talking about drugs like didanozine, which is a very toxic drug; zidovudine, which is the famous azt which can cause severe anemia; nevirapine, that’s the drug that’s been known to cause Steven Johnson’s Syndrome, which is an enormously painful flaking of the skin. I mean, I’ve seen pictures myself, and it’s as if a young child has just been pulled from a terrible fire. And they’re giving these cocktails of drugs to these kids, and when a researcher pushes too far, who do these kids turn to? They don’t have any parents. Their parent is the ACS. This is the horrific side of it all. They have — they’re totally and utterly vulnerable.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined by Vera Sharav, who has been looking at the whole issue of trials and issues of consent. Now, some might say that these drugs may make people very sick, but ultimately, they’ll make them better. What is your response?

VERA SHARAV: That’s the hope, of course, but these children are not consenting adults. They cannot evaluate the risks and benefits, and whether they have something to gain for them. They require a personal advocate. Because they have no parents, it makes them doubly vulnerable. The federal law or regulations, really, mandate that children in foster care may only be used in experiments involving greater than minimal risk, only if there is a direct benefit to them, or if the study examines their situation as foster care children. Now, these were drug trials. These had nothing to do with being in foster care. The trials were phase one and phase two. That means they are highly experimental safety studies. They’re examining the safety of the drugs in children, often testing them in children for the first time. Our question, and we filed a complaint both with the FDA and with the federal office of human research protection. Those two investigations are ongoing. Our question was, why did these children not receive the best standard care that was available at the time? That is their right. They should not because they’re vulnerable, because they’re wards of the state be simply taken and used as a means to an end. The end being, as you said, potentially, perhaps, possibly improved treatment. That — the skip and jump between a clinical trial and clinical care — there is a huge gap there because the unknown is there. Secondly, many of these drugs, and we have, you know, the adverse effects are as Jamie said, quite horrendous.

AMY GOODMAN: I’m sorry ACS wouldn’t join us. We even asked them if they would join separately from Jamie Doran and they said no. But they sent a statement that said the single case used to build the story was described in a way that was blatantly inaccurate. They’re talking about your BBC documentary, Jamie, Guinea Pig Kids. They say part of a foster parent’s job is to ensure child safety including routine medical checks as well as following doctor-prescribed medication and treatment. Should a foster parent fail to live up to these responsibilities, we have to intervene. If we find that the foster parents are endangering the child’s health or not meeting the child’s needs, removal of the child from his or her home may be necessary and appropriate for the best interests of the child. Jamie Doran.

JAMIE DORAN: I have heard this claim. I’m wondering if the ACS have actually watched the film. They keep referring to this single case. There are three, clear, specific cases in that film. I also spoke to numerous children and guardians, most of whom were too frightened to appear on the program. If you want your kids back out of foster care or one of these children’s homes, the last thing you do in New York City is take on the ACS. But I think they should be aware, the BBC film was actually the shop version, the 28-minute version of my film. Okay. I hope the ACS is looking forward to seeing the longer version, of which there are more cases, additional to that. I have statements written and verbal statements, recorded statements from other children and parents. So, they’re not going to get away with that.

AMY GOODMAN: On that note, we’re going to have to wrap this up, but we do want to have a second part of this discussion. We’re going to try again to get ACS on, and we want to have Vera Sharav back, president of the Alliance for Human Research Protection, as well as Jamie Doran. Again the documentary has just run — BBC documentary called Guinea Pig Kids.