AMY GOODMAN: We’re broadcasting from the U.N. climate summit in Baku, Azerbaijan. We begin today’s show with Colombia’s Minister of Environment Susana Muhamad, who’s held the position since 2022, when the government of the President Gustavo Petro took office. Muhamad is Colombia’s lead climate negotiator here at COP29. I asked for her response to Donald Trump’s reelection.

AMY GOODMAN: If you could talk about the significance of Donald Trump being reelected president in the United States? He says he will once again pull out of the Paris Climate Agreement.

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes, it is absolutely a disaster for global climate, because, of course, you know, the U.S. is one of the big emitters in the world and has a big responsibility. So, so far, if the U.S. pulls out, I think there’s still consequences. One, it will create a vacuum for other countries to take their place, its place. And I see, for example, China very committed to multilateralism and ready to hopefully step in. But secondly, something that is more and more —

AMY GOODMAN: It would be a big deal, because China is now the largest polluter. I mean, U.S. is historically.

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes, exactly, historically, but, in any case, are the countries that have more economic capacity and commitment for starting the decarbonization first and bringing emissions down globally. I mean, if China and the U.S. don’t do anything on this, we can all do a lot, but the problem will not be solved.

Now, secondly, I think we have to reflect further, and it’s because this trend of the far right coming to power is not only in the U.S. We have seen that happening in Europe. We have seen that in Latin America. Actually, the Argentinian government pulled out also the delegation. And what is the deeper reflection? That these transitions have to take into account the most vulnerable people in the planet. The people have to feel that this ecological and economic transition will improve their quality of life. So far, we are not doing that, because we are still in this liberal economy playing the same rules of the game, neoliberalism, and what’s happening is that masses of population are just left behind. And that’s the perfect — the perfect condition for right-wing populists to come and put the environment against the people, which is actually an environmental and a social disaster, and to sell that actually fossil fuels and the old way of development is the answer, which actually is a total trap because what it has created is a lot of inequality, as we know.

So, the call Colombia is also making here is that the just transition is not a game, that the finance needs to come also to developing countries, and that everywhere we have to put the most vulnerable people and the people that are on the frontline of climate change for inclusion; otherwise, we actually create the risk of political backlash on climate, as we are actually seeing.

AMY GOODMAN: Were you shocked when Trump won?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: It is a big call. It’s a big call of progressives everywhere that neoliberal economics is actually creating a bigger monster. And we have to create an alternative model that really, really includes and improves the quality of life of the most vulnerable.

AMY GOODMAN: That was Colombia’s minister of environment, chair of the U.N. climate delegation for Colombia here in Baku, Azerbaijan, for COP29. I also had a chance to sit down with Susana Muhamad for an in-depth interview to look at how Colombia President Gustavo Petro’s administration has made climate issues central to its agenda. Colombia’s Vice President Francia Márquez is a longtime Afro-Colombian environmentalist, who’s long fought for the protection of land and natural resources, while President Petro has halted the approval of new oil drilling projects and has vowed to phase out fossil fuels in Colombia, the oil-rich nation. The Petro administration has also led efforts to fight deforestation in the Amazon rainforest. Last year, Colombia became the first major fossil fuel-producing nation to join the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty coalition, setting a path toward an ambitious energy transition.

Colombia has also just hosted the U.N. biodiversity summit, known as COP16, in the city of Cali. The summit concluded earlier this month without a much sought-after agreement on funding by wealthy countries. But some good news emerged from the summit, as well, concluding a measure establishing a permanent Indigenous consulting body at the U.N. to weigh in on conservation issues.

This all comes as Colombia earlier this year banned all coal exports to Israel over its devastating war on Gaza. Colombia is the world’s sixth-largest coal exporter.

Minister Muhamad was born in the Colombian capital of Bogotá, is of Palestinian descent. I began by asking her thoughts on the status of this year’s climate negotiations here in Baku so far.

SUSANA MUHAMAD: We are in a very difficult discussion, a very difficult negotiation. We are seeing two trends. Right now the whole negotiation is up in the air. We don’t have concrete texts, and it has gone now to the political level. One of the trends is actually the initiative of some countries to come backwards from the decisions made in Dubai one year ago, especially on the issue of transitioning away from fossil fuels. Other countries, like the Latin American countries under the negotiating group of AILAC, are pushing back so that we don’t go backwards in that aim of transitioning away from fossil fuels. So, otherwise, we are not moving forward. And this is a financial COP. This means that the goal for finance for the next 10 years on the climate convention will be established. But there is a very polarized and difficult environment for negotiation.

AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about Colombia’s stance, I mean, even the fact that it’s the first oil country to join the fossil-free treaty.

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes. We have run scenarios for Colombia in this transition for the future. In 15 years, our coal markets — and we have to remember, everybody, we are the fifth-largest exporter of coal in the world, and our economy depends on the export of fossil fuels. So, for us, the transition is not only an energy transition, it’s a whole economy transition. How are we going to replace the fiscal incomes that are happening from the export of fossil fuels, and also, what are the other sectors of the economy that will be replacing them? So, for us, it’s an environmental stand, but it’s also a very pragmatic stand, because what we foresee in the future 15 years from now is that our markets will be closing, and we need an alternative.

But we need a planned transition. And right now the financial system and the current economic situation is not helping Colombia in that aim. And that’s why we have put this process forward. And the fossil fuel treaty is about a call from 14 countries — we hope to be 25 countries in the near future — so that we have rules of the game that create conditions for that transition, and not that we play by the current rules, which are actually very unequal and will punish the transition that Colombia wants to make.

And that’s why, actually, the reality is we are expanding fossil fuels in the world. We are making — tripling renewables, but at the same time we’re expanding fossil fuels. So we are not dealing, we are not tackling, really, the climate problem, and we are creating more energy capacity. We are not using renewables to replace fossil fuels. And this is a big problem. And the reason is we haven’t created the economic conditions for that economic transition.

AMY GOODMAN: So, here at the U.N. climate summit, it might surprise many to know that the largest delegation is not Colombia’s or the United States or any other country. The largest grouping of people here are the oil and gas lobbyists. So, how can this be a successful summit? And what kind of pressure are you under?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: That’s true. Like, the legitimacy of the COP process had been affected in the last three, four COPs by two factors. One, the summit is every time closing and closing more to democratic participation. Actually, what we showed in COP16 of biodiversity in Cali is that you can have a people’s COP. You can have a COP where people from all walks of life, and especially the ones that are in the frontlines of the problem, have a voice, as we were able, for example, to approve the subsidiary body on Indigenous peoples. This is not happening in the climate COP. On the contrary, the climate COP is closing, closing, closing, and the corporate interests are more manifest all the time.

And I think Brazil, the next COP, which will be again in Latin America, has a very strong mandate to open democratically the COP process again, so we regain legitimacy and we actually — it’s not that the fossil fuel industry cannot be here, because it is one of the key actors, but it cannot dominate and cannot be the one that has privileged access to the summit. And this is happening right now. And, of course, part of the discussion here is that some of the fossil fuel producers, especially in the Arab world, are really pushing so that we go one step back from what we achieved in Dubai, that was the acceptance of the COP process in climate that we needed to transition away from fossil fuels.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you about Colombia’s record when it comes to being the deadliest country for environmentalists and land defenders. Last year, a record 79 were killed, according to the U.K. advocacy group Global Witness. How has this impacted Colombia’s transition to peace after nearly half a century of war, and impacted progress around the climate?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Actually, it is very correlated. The increase of murders of environment defendants is actually happening exactly in the departments where or the territories where we are working to consolidate the peace process and we are dealing with dissidents of FARC and illicit economies. So, it’s the presence of those factors and the process of stabilization after the peace agreement that is increasing the murders.

We have talked extensively to Global Witness about the list. We actually accept the result. And we are working hard by signing the Escazú Agreement, which is a Latin American agreement to defend environmental defenders and to put in a policy of human rights that defends them. But we are also facing this challenge of the transition from the peace process and illicit economies. And it’s one of the most critical aspects, because we really believe that it is communities on the ground, in the field, that can make a difference on the climate transition. And if their leadership is inhibited and murdered by these illicit economies, by this struggle that we are having in the territory, of course, we cannot advance in our climate goals as we will — we should.

AMY GOODMAN: The theme of this summit is finance. Colombia’s $40 billion climate investment plan is described as a test case for transition finance. What key lessons do you hope the international community takes from Colombia’s approach, your country’s approach? You are the head of the delegation here.

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes. We are putting forward something that we call “No Excuse Plan,” because many people say countries don’t have the capacity. Developing countries, you know, cannot access finance. We have the capacity to put this plan. We have a plan and a strategic vision of how to empower other economic sectors to replace oil and gas. We are doing the hard work of internal consultations with all the sectors. We are putting the numbers together.

Now we want the international community to step in, because we are very clear. The Colombian government, the Colombian society, a critical mass of it, is ready to put this part, but we cannot do this alone. We cannot be fair in doing this climate action with access to capital at 10%, when developed countries have access to capital to 1%, when we are almost about to lose our investment qualification, risk qualification. And we are a highly indebted country, but we are not standing still and saying, “Oh, because of these conditions, we cannot do the transition.” On the opposite, we are very proactive. We have strategic vision. We know that this climate transition can be also an economic opportunity for the country. But we are putting all this so that international finance step in and create the condition. And we can show that a country that is in this situation can make a fair and just transition and actually can contribute to climate at the same time.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, I wanted to ask you, Susana Muhamad — you were born in Bogotá, Colombia, Colombian of Palestinian descent. And I wanted to get your response to the activism here at this summit around a global energy embargo against Israel for its war on Gaza. The other day, we were passing a protest, and this is one of the organizers of the protest, Hamza Hamouchene, an organizer with the Global Energy Embargo for Palestine, a Palestinian-led campaign. He spoke to us Monday at a protest here at COP29 during a protest supporting the embargo.

HAMZA HAMOUCHENE: Colombia was the biggest exporter of coal to Israel, and President Petro decided in the last few months to ban that export. So, we need to escalate our campaigning, the pressure on these countries and on Brazil, as well. Brazil is going to host the COP30 next year, but still it exports oil to the genocidal regime. So, these things need to stop. These are our demands.

AMY GOODMAN: Colombia has proposed a coal embargo against Israel because of what’s happening in Palestine right now. Can you talk about this?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes. It was a decision from President Petro on the call of Palestinians in the world. We realized that the Colombian coal was fueling 70% of Israel’s energy capabilities. So, Colombia had — the president, Petro, has signed a decree to forbid the export of Colombian coal to Israel. We also broke democratic — diplomatic relationships with Israel. We don’t have diplomatic relationships. And we are calling other countries to not supply energy that is used, actually — fossil fuel energy that is used in genocide.

AMY GOODMAN: And where is your family from in Palestine?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: It is from a very small village called Abu Shukheidim, very close to Ramallah. And my grandfather migrated to Colombia like almost a hundred years ago, actually.

AMY GOODMAN: And your thoughts on what Petro has done, and also for the global call here for a total energy embargo against Israel?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes. There is Genocide Convention. Actually, we know what is the impact of genocide, what is the impact on human rights of warfare. We have lived it ourselves. So, Colombia takes very seriously our commitments on the Convention on Genocide. And that convention calls countries, states that are part of the convention to not enable the means towards genocide. So, an energy embargo means that parties and countries become responsible for not allowing the means to Israel to commit that genocide. And we are — that’s why that’s the legal framework. There is also an International Court Justice resolution this year, sentence this year, that is calling what’s happening in Israel and Gaza a genocide. So, there is a legal framework for states to act. And that’s why the Colombian government is calling other states to not allow and provide the means for a genocide that is happening live — we can all see it — and that is actually tremendous on the most vulnerable people.

AMY GOODMAN: Minister Muhamad, you’re the head of the delegation here. President Petro didn’t come. Why not?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: President Petro canceled at last minute, because one week after COP16 in Colombia, we had very, very strong rainfall and flooding with one of our states, or departamentos, 85% flooded in the most vulnerable area in the country. So, he had to attend that situation. And it’s a paradox, because, basically, it is because of climate change that we are having these effects that affect the most vulnerable people.

AMY GOODMAN: And finally, next year, the COP30 will be in Brazil. I’ve got two questions. One is, you were head of COP16, the biodiversity convention in Cali: How that’s different from this COP, what was being achieved? And then, here, the COP is coming for the first time right to the Amazon. And what that means as a sister country in Latin America?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Yes. We have worked with the Brazilian government. We call it the road from Cali to Belém, because actually it’s two years of these COPs in Latin America. It’s an extraordinary opportunity for a region to show a different path that puts humanity and nature at the center. Cali was an exemplary COP, because we call it a people’s COP. And it actually show how diversity, how the voices of those that are in the frontlines of the problem, can influence the environment of negotiation, can create empowerment and participation from the diversity of voices. And to solve these issues, climate, biodiversity, which is the loss of nature, which are actually interconnected, we need the knowledge of everybody, and we need the experience, the whole human experience. We cannot undervalue anybody.

And also, COP16 in Cali achieved something that so far has not been achieved here. We have created a new source of funding for biodiversity, which is the Cali Fund. And it’s a fund that we collect money from the private sector that is using genetic resources when they are in digital databases. They have to contribute now to this multilateral fund that then will be redistributed to the countries that have the biodiversity to protect it. So, actually, the Cali COP was very successful in creating this new funding source for global biodiversity to put — to make the private sector pay for the use of those resources and to convert private money into public money that can actually now protect the common good.

AMY GOODMAN: What exactly does biodiversity mean? And why does it matter?

SUSANA MUHAMAD: Actually, biodiversity is the diversity of life, and it is all the species that, interlinked into what we call the web of life, make our planet a living planet, create the ecosystem that provides all the sources of life for everybody to live, including humans. We forget that we are part of the biosphere. We are just not aliens that arrive here and are separated. And that’s why, when — every species that is extincted breaks that chain of life and creates an impact. And some scientists said, because that of human intervention, we are now entering the sixth global extinction of a species. It has happened five times before in the history of the planet, and we could be entering the sixth, but this time because of the influence of one species, with the human beings. So, biodiversity COP is about the convention on how to protect the diversity of life on Earth and how to protect nature.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s Susana Muhamad, Colombia’s environment minister, who chairs Colombia’s climate delegation here at COP29 in Baku.

Coming up, we question Azerbaijan’s deputy foreign minister, the COP29 lead negotiator, about Azerbaijan’s crackdown on civil society. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “Machines” by Reverend Billy and the Church of Stop Shopping Choir. Next month, they’ll be debuting Extinction! The Musical at Joe’s Pub in New York City.