AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. We’re broadcasting from Baku, Azerbaijan, from the U.N. climate summit, but we’re talking about breaking news. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

The International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and former Defense Minister Yoav Gallant for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed during Israel’s assault on Gaza. In a statement, the ICC said the Israeli leaders had, quote, “intentionally and knowingly deprived the civilian population in Gaza of objects indispensable to their survival, including food, water, and medicine and medical supplies, as well as fuel and electricity.”

The ICC also issued an arrest warrant for the Hamas military commander Mohammed Deif, though Israel’s military claims it killed him in a July airstrike.

We go right now to Raji Sourani, the award-winning human rights lawyer, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza. He has lived in Gaza for decades, for all of his life. He fled Gaza after Israel bombed his home. He joins us now from Cairo, Egypt.

Raji, it’s an honor to have you with us. If you could start off by responding to these enormous developments out of the International Criminal Court?

RAJI SOURANI: Thank you, Amy.

This is a great day, great day for justice and dignity of man. It’s a great day for the rule of law. And this day makes us remember all these souls of children, women, civilians, all the destruction, all the starvation and displacements Gazans suffered for the last 13 months in this ongoing genocide, which broadcasted live on air at the real time to the whole world and costed us so far 44,000, has been killed. More than 70% of them are civilians. And not only that, but 140,000 has been injured. One-third of them will die because there is no access for medical equipment or medicine or even food. So, it’s a great day to have these genociders, finally, with arrest warrants and wanted for justice at the most important court on Earth.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Raji Sourani, could you explain why you think this decision has come now, why this arrest warrant now, so many months after — over a year after this assault on Gaza began?

RAJI SOURANI: I just want to remind everybody that since 2017, when the preliminary examination was taking place, President Trump then issued presidential decree, and he threatened all prosecutors, judges and people working at the court, if they act or react and do anything against U.S. or Israel, they will be held accountable, and they will be subject to revoke their visas or not issuing visas for them to the U.S., and they will have their property being confiscated if it’s located in the U.S., their accounts in the American banks, as well, and they will be tried and sentenced in the U.S. So, that climate of threats, intimidation was all over the place.

Most recently, we witnessed, as well, how Israel, U.S., flagrantly, I mean, publicly, threatening the ICJ and the ICC together if they act or react. So, for the first time, we are witnessing something unprecedented. It’s states threatening the most important courts. It’s threatened the law enforcement agency, threatening judges and prosecutors who are there to bring justice. And for the first time, this is happening publicly, openly and from very senior levels, the president, President Trump, or congressmen, or U.S. and Israel together. Of course, many countries are complicit with that, especially in Europe, who provided full legal and political immunity for the state of Israel to continue the genocide they are doing, I mean, for the last 13 months. That was the reason of [inaudible], so the direct threats against the justice system, the ICC and the ICJ.

And I’m very proud that these three judges, with consensus, came to their decision, and they took it. And I’m humbled, I mean, with these three judges and the ICC to be courageous enough to stand and issue such a great, remarkable, landmark decision.

AMY GOODMAN: Raji, if you can talk more about what exactly this means? Are they brought to the ICC? Are they put on trial? And where does Mohammed Deif fit into this? I mean, Israel said they’ve killed him already in an airstrike. Right? He was also brought up on committing war crimes. What does that mean? What does it mean for them? And then I want to talk about the International Court of Justice, where this fits in to that case — Karim Khan is the prosecutor with the ICC — and why you feel, having, you know, spent your life in Gaza — you’re about to turn 71, born in Gaza City — why it has taken and what was the turning point.

RAJI SOURANI: Well, let me put it this way. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict didn’t begin October 7th last year. In the short version, we have 57-years-old occupation. And this is in the short story. The longer story, it’s 76 years since the Nakba began. And when we went to the ICC and filed our complaint, we went in 2008 and '09, and we engaged with them on that. And that was after the attack of Israel, I mean, on the Gaza Strip. And in 2012, another attack happened. In 2014, same thing happened, and in 2017 and the Great March of Return, 2021, 2022 and 2023 May. So, the reason why we went to the ICC wasn't related with this last offensive of October. It’s for the crimes, crimes against humanity, persecution Israel carried against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank settlements, the Judaization of Jerusalem, the annexation of Jerusalem, the bypass road, the annexation apartheid wall, the incursions of cities, villages and camps in the West Bank, the blockade on Gaza and all these wars. These were the reason. We are having criminal, belligerent occupation, who did horrific war crimes and crimes against humanity against Palestinian civilians. International law, international humanitarian law are there to protect civilians at the time of war. And that’s why we resorted to it. When we failed in achieving justice in universal jurisdiction, we went to the ICC, the court for no-man’s court. Nobody ever talked about just or fair occupation, occupation by itself, crime of aggression. And I don’t think this Israeli occupation is just or fair.

What we were shocked of, not what after October 7 the president of Israel said, or the prime minister or the minister of defense. The prime minister of Israel said Gazans should leave Gaza. And the Israeli president said, “There is no innocent civilian in Gaza. All are complicit, and they all will be targeted.” And the minister of defense said, “There will be no water, no medicine, no food, no fuel for Gazans.” And they began, I mean, their genocide attack against Gaza and Gazans for the last 13 months. And the entire world witnessed that live on air at the real time. And this was reported and documented by many now.

That’s why we resorted, I mean, to the ICC once and again, reminding Mr. Khan that genocide is part of this, and the ICC should activate its role and complete the mission of the investigation, which Fatou Bensouda, this fantastic piece of African marble, did when she was the prosecutor. And unfortunately, for three years he moved nowhere. And he moved, I mean, in last May, which is good, but he tried even to be politically balanced. And that’s why he brought Palestinians and Israelis. And Israel, obviously and clearly, showed that they are doing genocide. And genocide, usually the most important part of it, hard to prove, is the intent. But the intent was, from day one, simple, clear, direct and said by Israeli key figures — the president, the prime minister, the minister of defense and tens of the Israeli ministers, political party leaders, army leaders. And it’s all over the place.

Now, we are having this situation now. We are having a warrant issued by the pretrial chamber by the consensus of three judges. This is not the end of the process, but this shows, once and again, moral legal superiority on a criminal occupation doing genocide against the Palestinian people in the Occupied Territories, precisely, I mean, in the Gaza Strip. There is long way to go, and we will fight for it ’til we have these suspected criminals being held accountable in the court of justice. And we are sure that we are going to deliver, and this dream will be realized.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Raji Sourani, could you respond to the way that the Israeli prime minister has responded to this news? The prime minister’s office declared in a statement on Thursday that the ICC’s “antisemitic decision” to issue arrest warrants against Netanyahu and Gallant is, quote, “equivalent to a modern Dreyfus trial.” Your response, Raji Sourani?

RAJI SOURANI: I mean, no new news in this. They are very arrogant. They are very jealous. The West, especially U.S. and Europe, made Israel feel they will never, ever they will be held accountable. They feel they are immune. They are doing all what they are doing and that they lied, and they don’t hide it. They attack children cancer hospitals at the daylight. They attack hospitals and doctors. They rape prisoners, by the army in the army detention centers. They kill women, children at the daylight. They starve people. They criminalized UNRWA, the body which should serve the Palestinian refugees in the Gaza Strip, the only body which is doing and delivering that. And nobody holds them accountable.

Look, last night, this ugly veto of the U.S. to the Security Council against ceasefire, just to stop genocide. By whom we are killed? By which bombs and missiles and airplanes? It’s American. It’s European. They feel they are fully immune, they are free to do whatever they can, they will never be held accountable, and why their appetite for crimes growing like a snowball every day. Like, now they are talking publicly, “We’ll clean Gaza from this 2-and-a-half million people, and we will settle in it, and the settlers will be there.” And they began to sell the land of Gaza to the settlers and to sell the apartments. And they declared their intention about West Bank and the cleaning of it. This is unprecedented that such state, Israel, having all these crimes, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide, and just be dealt normally. This criminal, while he’s doing genocide, he came to the Congress, and he was received by everybody, and everybody was applauding him and his acts, more than the president of the United States. So, unfortunately — 

AMY GOODMAN: Raji, we have one —

RAJI SOURANI: — this makes them feel too much arrogant, and they feel, you know, just safe. And that’s why he’s shocked and reacted this way. He’s a criminal. He deserves accountability.

AMY GOODMAN: Raji, in May, the U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken suggested the Biden administration could work with Congress to sanction the ICC after news broke that the court was considering arrest warrants for Netanyahu and other top Israeli leaders. Go back 20 years to 2002, U.S. law often referred to as the Hague Invasion Act gives the U.S. president the power to invade the Netherlands to protect Americans who would be brought up before the International Criminal Court. Some defenders of Israel have called on the U.S. to invoke the act in defense of Israeli leaders. We’re not only talking about the Biden administration right now, but soon President Donald Trump will be in office. Your final response? And we just have a minute. Do you actually think that this is a possibility?

RAJI SOURANI: I have no idea, Amy, what President Trump will do. But I know they tried all the way long to protect Israel and the Israeli politicians, quote-unquote, “criminals,” who are doing all these crimes all the way long. I am sure that international community will not allow that. And the initial responses we received, whether from Borrell, the EU, fantastic, and he said, “It’s not political decision. This is court decision. We are going to [inaudible] it.” France, the same thing. And I think, I mean, in Europe, this will be followed.

U.S. is not the master of the world, and they cannot be the master of the world. America can be great when they respect the rule of law, not the rule of jungle. And Palestinians are not the slaves of the old Rome. In the old Rome, there was two classes, slaves and masters, and the law was applicable for masters, and slaves, you can slaughter at the daylight, and nobody hold you accountable. We are not going to be good victims for anybody. We, as the Palestinians, deserve justice and dignity. We will fight for the rule of law and will join the forces with only free, committed people across the globe ’til this criminal occupation end, ’til these war crimes stops, ’til this genocide come to an end, until those criminals, Netanyahu, Gallant and all the entourage, being held accountable at the court of law for the crimes they committed. We are not going to forget or forgive all those crimes they committed against Palestinian children and women.

AMY GOODMAN: Raji Sourani, we thank —

RAJI SOURANI: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: We thank you so much for being with us. Raji Sourani, award-winning —

RAJI SOURANI: It’s my honor.

AMY GOODMAN: — human rights lawyer, founder and director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights in Gaza. He’s also the 2013 Right Livelihood Award laureate and also won the Robert F. Kennedy Human Rights Prize. He’s now speaking to us from Cairo, Egypt, after his house was bombed, though he and his family were able to get out of Gaza. He was born in Gaza City in 1953. This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh. We’re broadcasting from Baku, Azerbaijan. Thank you so much for joining us.