AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, “War, Peace and the Presidency: Breaking with Convention.” I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: The Democratic National Committee is moving ahead with a plan to virtually nominate Joe Biden ahead of the Democratic convention in Chicago despite growing calls for him to step aside. A new Associated Press poll shows nearly two-thirds of Democrats want Biden to withdraw from the race following his disastrous debate with Donald Trump. On Wednesday, California congressmember and U.S. Senate candidate Adam Schiff publicly called on Biden to, quote, “pass the torch.” Meanwhile, Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and House Minority Leader Hakeem Jeffries have reportedly both met with Biden to express concerns about him staying in the office.

In another major development, President Biden tested positive for COVID on Wednesday, forcing him to pause campaigning. Earlier on Wednesday, an interview was released where Biden said he would consider dropping out if a medical condition emerged.

AMY GOODMAN: Joining us again today — we’re doing two hours of coverage every day from the Republican National Convention here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin — we’re again joined by Chris Lehmann, D.C. bureau chief for The Nation.

Thanks so much for staying with us. So much has changed just in the last 24 hours. Just as JD Vance is about to give a speech at the Republican convention — President Trump every night is there at the convention, his white ear — his right ear has a white bandage on it because of the attempted assassination — we learned that President Biden has come down with COVID. He left Las Vegas, returned home. Just before that, in this BET interview, he said if there’s a medical condition that emerges — so much is happening. Nancy Pelosi apparently has spoken to him, as has other Democratic leaders, pushing him, apparently, to step aside. The significance of this moment?

CHRIS LEHMANN: Yeah, it’s unprecedented, to put things mildly. And it’s striking — you know, I’ve been here in Milwaukee covering the convention, and most of the other journalists and political operatives that I’m talking with were all talking about the Democrats yesterday. This is a potentially huge development, and it’s still not clear how it’s all going to shake out.

You know, it is — the reason that I think Nancy Pelosi, in particular, is playing a leading role in all this is, you know, during her long tenure as speaker and minority leader for the Democrats in the House, she was laser-focused on the fortunes of vulnerable incumbent Democrats in purple and red districts, historically red districts. And she’s looking at polling numbers that suggest that with Biden on top of the ticket, that Democrats have a vanishingly thin chance of recapturing the House. And, you know, to put things in bald power politics terms, if Trump is reelected, the House has to be the power base for the Democrats. You know, the House is the most popular branch of government. It’s the most responsive to the people because of the electoral cycle and the, you know, number of representatives.

AMY GOODMAN: Because congressmembers are elected every two years.

CHRIS LEHMANN: Yes, exactly. So, you know, that’s a flashing red warning light for Democrats, if the House is in jeopardy.

AMY GOODMAN: So, we’re hearing all sorts of names that are being bandied about, the whole idea that if President Biden is going to step aside, that he’s even possibly talking about with Democratic leaders: Do polls show Kamala Harris could win as the presidential candidate? Then, who would be the vice-presidential candidate? We’ve heard about Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor. We’ve heard about Wes Moore, the Maryland governor. We’ve heard about Gavin Newsom, the California governor; Josh Shapiro, the governor of Pennsylvania. Now a new name is surfacing: Mark Kelly, Arizona swing state senator, the husband of the shooting victim, former Congressmember Gabby Giffords, who himself was an astronaut, his twin brother also an astronaut. Amazing what is happening in these few moments, and the possibility of the virtual roll call, whether this is going to be put off. Already it’s been put off from next week perhaps to later, so that it doesn’t happen during the convention.

CHRIS LEHMANN: Yeah, like I said, unprecedented. And, yeah, you know, this is all sort of like crack to political reporters and, you know, political junkies, that you get to speculate about all these alternate scenarios. You know, in, I think, more realistic, pragmatic terms, Kamala Harris would, in the scenario of Biden stepping aside, be at the top of the ticket. And there are — yeah, who knows what? You have this vacancy at the VP slot.

And it’s interesting to see all of these machinations go forward, because — you know, I had a piece earlier this week, or, I guess, last week now — the time is blurring for me — in The Nation about the Democrats’ addiction to sort of résumé candidates, and that’s how they wound up with someone at Biden’s age at the top of the ticket. They have this kind of instinctive institutional deference to, you know, longevity and people holding power. And it’s a dramatic contrast to what’s been happening on the Republican side, right? You had Trump, but even before Trump, you know, Paul Ryan, who was like, you know, at one point — with Kevin McCarthy, like one of the young lions in the party. And they get shunted aside without remorse. You know, there is a real sense that leadership turns over.

AMY GOODMAN: And then you have this fascinating alignment of the progressives — 

CHRIS LEHMANN: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — who have been very critical of President Biden.

CHRIS LEHMANN: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: Everyone from Bernie Sanders to AOC to Ilhan Omar, when it comes to him stepping aside, have fully backed, and it’s more the corporate centrist Democrats who have said, “Step aside.”

CHRIS LEHMANN: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: And that’s very interesting. In the last weeks, you know, Bernie Sanders meeting with him, President Biden putting forth all these suggestions, everything from Supreme Court reforms, term limits, to ending medical debt.

CHRIS LEHMANN: Right. No, and again, the centrist-versus-progressive-wing tension there is really fascinating and, I think, goes back a bit to what I was saying earlier about Nancy Pelosi and the House. You know, if Biden were to stay at the top of the ticket and a Republican landslide ensued, the first people to go down are these centrists — right? — because they’re in districts that otherwise lean right. The progressives are in safe districts.

And, you know, they’re also making their own separate political leadership kind of calculations, like if Biden somehow hangs on, you know, these are chits that can be redeemed for things we want on our agenda. They also have a, you know, media image as being sort of fire-breathing and incendiary figures, so if they can come off at this moment as, you know, cautious and sensible and horse-trading figures, that redounds to their broader image in political discourse. So, again, a lot’s going on.

AMY GOODMAN: And we will, of course, continue to cover it. President Trump takes the stage tonight at the Republican National Convention. We’ll be back tomorrow with two hours of “War, Peace and the Presidency: Breaking with Convention.” Chris Lehmann, we want to thank you so much for being with us, D.C. bureau chief for The Nation. You can check out our other interview with him in the other hour of Democracy Now! today.

Democracy Now! currently accepting applications for a director of development to lead our fundraising team. Go to democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh, for another edition of “War, Peace and the Presidency: Breaking with Convention.”