AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.

We turn now to a discussion on efforts to push back against the Trump administration’s anti-immigrant agenda. The Department of Homeland Security said Tuesday it’s allowing federal immigration agents to conduct raids at schools, houses of worship and hospitals, ending a yearslong policy that banned ICE agents from arresting people at these locations. This comes a day after President Trump signed a series of executive orders on Inauguration Day which included declaring a national emergency at the southern border, launching mass raids and deportations, restricting federal funds from sanctuary cities, and ending birthright citizenship, which is protected by the U.S. Constitution’s 14th Amendment. On Tuesday, a coalition of 24 Democratic-led states and cities filed a lawsuit in federal court to block Trump’s executive order attempting to end birthright citizenship.

For more, we’re joined by three guests, three leading advocates for immigrant rights here in New York. Longtime immigrant rights advocate Ravi Ragbir is back in our studio. After nearly 20 years of fighting his own deportation, he was granted a pardon by President Biden on Sunday, a day before Biden left office. We’re also joined by Amy Gottlieb, Ravi’s wife and U.S. migration director for American Friends Service Committee, and Alina Das, lawyer and professor at New York University School of Law, where she is co-director of the NYU Immigrant Rights Clinic, part of Ravi’s legal team.

So, we’re going to go large on the issue of immigration in a moment, but I want to hear the moment that you heard. First of all, Ravi Ragbir, it was so hard for you to even speak two Fridays ago when you were here, as you awaited news in your own case. You’re so busy, always advocating for others. How did you find out you got a pardon?

RAVI RAGBIR: So, I was, that whole day on Saturday — and I come to Saturday because that’s when we heard — I was in a funk, in a deep — very depressed. And I was lowering my expectations, saying, “We will never get it. We will never get it.” At 9:00 in the night, we got a call from Alina, Amy and I. Amy got the call, and she put Alina on speaker. And every time we get a — a lot of the times when we get a —

AMY GOODMAN: Alina, your lawyer.

RAVI RAGBIR: Alina Das, my lawyer. Usually, when we get calls from Alina, it’s like, “Oh my god. What’s next? What is going to happen that I’m going to have to be worried about?” Alina was in tears, because she had just gotten that call from the White House stating that her client, who is me, is going to get a pardon.

AMY GOODMAN: How did — Alina, talk about where you were when you got the call. You’ve worked so hard on this for so long.

ALINA DAS: Yes. Well, Ravi has been working hard for the past 19 years fighting his deportation. I’ve been his lawyer for the last 17 years. And it was incredible. I was at home with my children when I got this call from a 202 number, ran upstairs to take it in quiet. And I really fell to my knees and sobbed.

AMY GOODMAN: What did they say?

ALINA DAS: They told me that my client would be getting a pardon. And they said that it was, you know, a credit to his fearless advocacy and the advocacy of so many who have spoken up for him over the years. And they acknowledged that we, as an immigrant rights movement, would be facing very hard times ahead. And I told the person from White House counsel that this news was the wind at our back.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Specifically, what does the pardon do for him now in terms of his case?

ALINA DAS: So, Ravi faced deportation based on a single criminal conviction that he received 24 years ago. And our federal immigration laws, which have been incredibly harsh for a very long period of time, did not give him a safety valve. They did not give an immigration judge the ability to consider his family ties, the hardship of deportation, his contributions to the community, before ordering his deportation. So, what federal law did recognize was that a full and unconditional pardon of his conviction would eliminate those immigration consequences. So that’s what we’ve received now. And this will allow him to live without fear of deportation, to live freely after all these years.

RAVI RAGBIR: Can I add to that? So, it is — people have asked me how I feel, right? I am numb, because after all those years of living under this, I am numb because I have always had to steel myself against what was going to happen. But right from the next day, on Monday, is the absence of worrying about what is going to happen. And there’s a certain amount of freedom. There’s a certain amount of lightening of the load. I feel so light and so free because I don’t have to think about that possibility. All I can think about is living my life, but living my life working to stop what is happening to the thousands of families.

AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s talk about what’s happening. There have been reports of imminent ICE raids across the country, in Chicago, in New York, which are sanctuary cities. How do you want and expect New York City officials to respond, including Mayor Eric Adams? It’s very complicated. He went down to Mar-a-Lago. He met privately with Trump ahead of his inauguration, met with Trump’s so-called border czar, Tom Homan, in December. What do you want to see now? I mean, Amy, you now are celebrating your husband’s freedom here. He won’t be deported to Trinidad and Tobago. But how, for example, is AFSC preparing, and the information that has to get out to people all over the country?

AMY GOTTLIEB: Yeah. So, we are — we’re doing a lot of what every organization is doing right now, is really kind of doubling down to make sure that we are connecting with people who feel like they’re at risk. There’s “Know Your Rights” presentations happening everywhere all the time. You know, people are upping their information. But it can’t just be that, right? Like, we also are building out organizing work. We’re making sure that people who are willing, or perhaps people who are not at risk, are willing to put themselves out there to support people who are at risk. So, we’re working, you know, collectively with — the American Friends Service Committee is a Quaker organization, so we’re really connecting with Quaker meetings that have concerns about immigrants in their communities. We’re also having a lot of conversations across the border. We have offices in Latin America, in El Salvador and Guatemala and Mexico. So we’re seeing what’s happening right now in Tijuana and San Diego, in particular, and making sure that we’re able to support people who have family members who might be facing deportation here. So, it’s a host of things.

But I think the key thing we want to be really super careful about is to not let ourselves go down a road where we’re completely overwhelmed and can’t function, right? We have to stay centered. We have to be able to hear what’s happening, realize what the law does. So we are so grateful for all of our partner organizations that are filing lawsuits immediately. But there also needs to be a buildup on the ground, that community support, because the truth is that with the best legal counsel in the world, which we have, you also need community. And that’s how Ravi got his pardon, and that is a light for all of us. And I’ll say that, you know, just on a call I was on last night, to share the story about Ravi getting the pardon is — it’s a little bit of light and energy for people as we’re facing all the things that the administration is saying they’re going to do. So we have to really stay calm, stay grounded, know that as much as what they’re saying is ugly and horrible and racist and frightening, that we are on the right side of history, and we’re going to be, and we have to stay there.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And I’d like to ask Alina — Trump issued an executive order on Monday that would restrict federal funds from sanctuary cities and potentially take legal action against them. What is your sense of the state laws clashing now with federal policy and how that’s going to work out?

ALINA DAS: This is something that we saw during the first Trump administration, as well. And states and localities were able to fight back, because the Constitution does protect states from being interfered with by the federal government. And I think what people need to keep in mind is that sanctuary laws, as they’re described, really are just about ensuring that cities and states are actually fulfilling their residents’ constitutional rights. The cities and states are not allowed to just hold people, waiting for the federal government to come and pick them up. Many of the laws that are being attacked by the Trump administration are simply a recognition of people’s constitutional rights to be free and to require the federal government to have a judicial warrant before they come and arrest people or enter into private properties. These are very fundamental things. And I think we’re seeing the Trump administration widen its circle of pain and suffering, coming after cities and states who are, again, just abiding by the law, coming after U.S. citizens to take away their birthright citizenship, coming after churches and schools. I mean, this is wrong, and we need people to continue to stand up and fight back and protect everyone’s constitutional rights.

AMY GOODMAN: Juan, we’re here in New York, a sanctuary city. You’re in Chicago, which, until recently, a few days ago, was, everyone thought, ground zero, the first place for immigration raids. And then, inexplicably, the czar, immigration czar, border czar, as they call him, Homan, said, because of media leaks, they’re not going to attack Chicago first. But he was the one who said it publicly; it wasn’t the media.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yes, and I — 

AMY GOODMAN: What is the feeling in Chicago right now?

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Yeah, and I think he got ticked off that the information leaked out about the mobilizations and the plans for Chicago. But, no doubt, all of these major cities will soon confront the onslaught of agents coming in to round people up. So, it’s only a question of days, really.

AMY GOODMAN: So, when it comes to New York, I mean, it’s more complicated, because the mayor in Chicago is really standing up against Trump, but the mayor of New York, who’s under indictment himself — maybe he’s seeking a pardon, I don’t know — Mayor Adams, met with Trump and Homan. What are you demanding of him, Amy Gottlieb, Ravi Ragbir?

RAVI RAGBIR: So, we don’t — the way I frame it, I don’t care what he does or what he doesn’t do. It is what the people have to do in the community of New York City. The City Council stands up for the members of the residents. And even though de Blasio was the so-called people’s — he wasn’t in the situation as Adams. The NYPD still worked actively with ICE, right? They worked actively to — for my deportation in 2018. So, what happened is, everyone stood up. Everyone stepped out. So, people need to start connecting to the local organizations, the AFSC, any of the immigrant rights, plus other groups.

AMY GOODMAN: We have five seconds.

RAVI RAGBIR: OK. And so that it is not what Mayor Adams has to do; what we have to do, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there. Ravi Ragbir is with us, as well as his wife Amy Gottlieb, who is with AFSC, and Alina Das at NYU. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.