NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Maria, we also want to ask you about the death of Pope Francis. Thousands of mourners are lining up again today as Pope Francis’s body lies in state in St. Peter’s Basilica. His funeral will be on Saturday. You met with the pope, Pope Francis, several times at the Vatican, including most recently in January at the World Communications Jubilee, where you delivered the opening speech. We’re just going to play a clip.

MARIA RESSA: Because we are at the Vatican, I want to point out three things. First, technology rewards, rewards lies. Think about that. The first time I met Pope Francis, I said, “Pope Francis, it’s against the Ten Commandments.” Two, the men who control this transformative technology wield godlike power, but they’re far from God.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that was Maria Ressa, the Nobel laureate, speaking at the Vatican with Pope Francis in the audience. It was what? January 27th. Talk about what Pope Francis means to you — Philippines is a Catholic country — and why he was also so concerned about the media.

MARIA RESSA: Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, I would be what you’d call a wayward Catholic. I mean, you know, I believed in God, but I didn’t like the way governance in the five major world religions happen. Right? The manipulation, the lack of rights for women — I mean, whatever. But Pope Francis called us, about 20 to 30 Nobel Peace Prize winners. And around 2023, we met with him and came out. He thought the world was going crazy. Right? War. He stood up against the — he asked for peace in Ukraine, in Gaza, in all the different —

AMY GOODMAN: He called for a ceasefire in Gaza Sunday, Easter, right before he died.

MARIA RESSA: Right before, exactly. And beyond that, this is a pope that understood the role of artificial intelligence. I mean, it was interesting sitting around a table where, you know, you could see all of the world’s problems that were existential, from landmines to climate change to nuclear proliferation to — oh my gosh, what would be the next one? I mean, I was at the last, in terms of technology and media. Right? He understood this. He stood up for the principles that were there, and even for the marginalized. This was a progressive pope. He was inclusive in a way the church had not been. And I think even small things, like we quibbled over the word “fraternity” — right? — because it’s sexist in nature. But it’s very hard to change an entire Catholic Church.

So, look, I think what he did with us, I was sitting next to Shirin Ebadi from Iran, Tawakkol Karman. It was multi — 

AMY GOODMAN: From Yemen.

MARIA RESSA: From Yemen, the first Arab woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize for the Arab — in the Arab Spring, right? And we all came together to demand peace, unity, and press freedom was also something Pope Francis — look, it was a choice. The jubilee happens once every 25 years for the Catholic Church. And the first speaker he chose, despite the relentless coverage of sexual abuse both of minors and of women in the Catholic Church — right? — despite all of that — 

AMY GOODMAN: And men.

MARIA RESSA: And men — he chose journalists to kick off the jubilee. He cared about what was happening around the world. And now this is yet — this conservative ally of progressive values, now we’re going to see what will happen at the conclave. Who will replace Pope Francis? The church is a powerful force. I guess this is what he taught me, is that faith is incredibly important when you’re fighting for your rights.

AMY GOODMAN: Two Filipinos are being considered to be the next pope.

MARIA RESSA: Oh my god! So, I knew one. Who’s the second?

AMY GOODMAN: I don’t know which one you know, and I probably don’t know the name of the second.

MARIA RESSA: OK, OK, OK. I know that three Filipinos for the first time — this is huge for the Philippines — are joining the conclave. And that was the other thing Pope Francis did, right? He changed the church by changing the people. He moved it away from a Eurocentric kind of Global North view, and he brought in Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa and Asia. Right? So, the one that has been tipped — and, of course, I’ve been to the Vatican now like four times in less than two years, because when Pope Francis calls, you go. Right? And the whisper, of course, is — and he may be as high as number two — is that Cardinal Tagle — he became — he moved to Rome because the pope, Pope Francis, gave him a special — like, he changed the rules. He gave him a special appointment to come to Rome. And Cardinal Tagle, I believe, is just behind —

AMY GOODMAN: We’re showing his picture with you.

MARIA RESSA: We were just — we were doing a — this is at the Vatican. And this man is very liberal, progressive. He speaks — he speaks normally. Again, I know him quite well, because when I first took over as head of the largest network in the Philippines, Cardinal Tagle had a program on ABS-CBN. Sorry. Back to ABS-CBN, the largest broadcaster in the Philippines lost its franchise to operate under Duterte. Franchise is like a license to operate. It never regained it, even after Duterte was gone. I’m just saying, you can cut the deals, corporate media, but once you empower a dictator, you lose these rights.

AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you so much for being with us. Certainly, an important warning you once again share with us here in the United States. Maria Ressa, co-founder and CEO of the Philippine independent news site Rappler, received the Nobel Peace Prize in 2021 for her work defending free expression in the Philippines, as the president at the time, Duterte, went after, attempted to arrest her over and over and over again. We also want to thank Robert Kuttner of The American Prospect.

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