AMY GOODMAN: Republicans and Democrats are continuing to battle over the terms of President Trump’s impeachment trial in the Senate. The House has impeached Trump for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress, but House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has withheld sending the articles of impeachment to the Senate over concerns of an unfair trial. Democrats are demanding the Senate hear witnesses in the trial, which centers on how President Trump withheld military aid from Ukraine to pressure the Ukrainian president to investigate Trump’s political rival Joe Biden ahead of the 2020 presidential election. On Tuesday, Alaska Republican Senator Lisa Murkowski said, in an interview in Alaska station KTUU in Anchorage, that she was “disturbed” by Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell’s promise of “total coordination” with the White House.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI: And in fairness, when I heard that, I was disturbed. … To me, it means that we have to take that step back from being hand in glove with the defense. And so, I heard what Leader McConnell had said. I happen to think that that has further confused the process.

AMY GOODMAN: Senator Murkowski’s comments mark a rare instance of dissent from the Republican Party, which has been unified behind President Trump until now. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell needs 51 votes to set rules for the hearing. Republicans have a thin majority of 53 seats in the Senate.

Well, for more, today we spend the hour with Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore to talk about impeachment, election and why he thinks President Trump could still win re-election. Last week, Moore witnessed the historic impeachment vote from the front row of the House gallery.

SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI: On this vote, the yeas are 230, the nays are 197, present is one. Article I is adopted.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to go now to a clip of Michael Moore in his new podcast, Rumble.

MICHAEL MOORE: Wilmington, Delaware. I’m on the Amtrak, the last train out of Washington, D.C., back to New York City. It was impeachment day in Washington, D.C. And at midnight last night, I thought, “Geez, I’m in New York. I think that’s near Washington. Why don’t we just head down to D.C.?” Got up in the morning, went down to the Amtrak station, at Penn Station, and got on the train. Let’s go see if we can get into the Capitol Building so we can watch the impeachment of Donald Trump live and in person. That was our goal this morning. We had no idea if we could get in there. We just hopped the train. This is Michael Moore.

AMTRAK P.A.: Next stop is Philadelphia, 30th Street Station. Philadelphia is next.

MICHAEL MOORE: And Philadelphia is next. This is my podcast, episode number three, Rumble with Michael Moore.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s Michael Moore’s new podcast, Rumble. He was recording from the train after the impeachment. Well, from the train to the studios, from the podcast to our broadcast, today we spend the rest of the hour with Michael Moore. I asked him to respond to just how he got in to watch the impeachment and what it was like.

MICHAEL MOORE: Well, we went there without any — knowing whether we could get in or not. So we didn’t have any, like, tickets or anything. And then we got there, and there’s this huge line. So, you know, then I said we’ve got to — we’re pretty good, like, when we’re making a movie, getting into places where we don’t belong. So, how can we get into this? And then I thought, “Oh, wait a minute. Flint has a congressman, so let’s go — let’s go see if we can get in there.”

So we go to the — Dan Kildee is his name. We go to his office in the Cannon House Office Building. And just as I open the door, there at the door is Ralph Nader. I’m like, “Whoa!” I haven’t seen him in a long time. And so — and then the congressman is there. I said, “Hey, Dan. Can we use your office, because, Ralph, you’ve got to do a podcast with me.” And so I sat down for 40 minutes and talked to Ralph about all the things I’ve been wanting to talk to him about for, you know, I don’t know, 20 years.

But we got in, and we got to sit down in the front row. There were three empty seats there. My sister and my friend and I, we were all there. And we sat there for four or five hours watching the debate and the vote. And I’m telling you, it’s not like it is on C-SPAN. C-SPAN is such a — you know, two-dimensional, flattens everything out, very strictly framed. You don’t get the peripheral vision on C-SPAN. One of the things I tell my crew, and if I’m allowed to — when I’m invited to film schools to talk to students, I always tell them that you’re going to find more truth in the peripheral than in the spot on, because in the spot on, you’re getting the official story. You’re getting the — you know, whatever it is they want you to report. But what’s going on over here, what’s going on around you, if you have a sense of trying to pay attention to that, you’ll find these things that you’ll never see in a documentary or in a movie or on the nightly news.

And so, what I saw from that front row of the gallery last Wednesday was both a bit exhilarating and frightening, exhilarating in the sense that you could see on the Democratic side that they, many of them, had found the courage of their convictions, had found their soul, their guts to stand up for this, even though the polls show it’s kind of a 50-50 in the country on impeachment, a little more in favor of it, but nonetheless a risky proposition, especially for a number of the Democrats in swing districts. The fact that they would take that stand in such a profound way and all the eloquence of what they were saying at the microphone was — and I could watch the Republicans as they were saying these eloquent and necessary things. And you don’t see that on C-SPAN.

And the Republicans are over there, you know, guffawing, doing the “Hey” — you know, mocking these Democrats. The mocking level goes up if it’s someone of color, if it’s a woman, if it’s somebody who’s not them. Because when you’re looking over at the Republican side, man, is that white and old and male. And it’s stunning that in 2019 that it looks like an episode of Leave It to Beaver over there and not the real America that we live in. See, I think — and they’re so angry. They’re so — they go up to the microphone, and they say these — spewing this anger, and all the angry old men in their seats squirming and “aaaghhh” — they be making these sounds. The very last sound they made, when the vote — when it passed, Trump was impeached — Pelosi had told the Democrats, “No applause, no cheering.” You know, if you go back and listen to that, the cheering you hear is myself and my sister and Basil. And so — but the Republicans let out this noise, this otherworldly noise, that — it wasn’t a “boo.” It was like a “uuuaaarrrhh.” It’s like, “Wow!” And I said to my sister, “That is what the dying dinosaurs must have sounded like in their final moments.”

So, the good news is here, those are the dying dinosaurs. And they know it. They know it because the demographic has changed. It’s not their America anymore. Seventy percent of the eligible voters next November are either women, people of color or young people between 18 and 35. That’s the majority of the people eligible to vote next year, not them. They’re the minority. They know it. They know the country has changed. And they know by the 2040s white people will be the minority in this country. And that’s really — the racial element of this never really gets discussed, but I think that is what’s hugely driving them.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Michael, these dying dinosaurs, as you call them, Republicans, have been dismissive of the charges against Trump. I’d like to turn to Georgia Republican Barry Loudermilk, who essentially compared Donald Trump to Jesus.

REP. BARRY LOUDERMILK: The Sixth Amendment guarantees the right of the defendant to face their accuser, but not only have the Democrats prohibited Republicans and the president from questioning the so-called whistleblower, his identity has been kept secret. Before you take this historic vote today, one week before Christmas, I want you to keep this in mind: When Jesus was falsely accused of treason, Pontius Pilate gave Jesus the opportunity to face his accusers. During that sham trial, Pontius Pilate afforded more rights to Jesus than the Democrats have afforded this president and this process.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Michael, your response to what Loudermilk said? And in particular, I mean, you’ve made the point that when you were growing up, there’s no way that the Republican Party would stand by what Donald Trump has been doing, what someone like Donald Trump has done. So, what do you think accounts for this shift in the Republican Party? But first respond to what Loudermilk said.

MICHAEL MOORE: Let me just say, because I went to Catholic school, that rendering of Pontius Pilate and Jesus is completely wrong — did not get to face the accusers, did not get — there was no trial. You know, Pilate’s just deciding. He’s the oppressor from Rome. Palestine, Judea, whatever it was called then, was an occupied territory by Romans. And by the way, I want to point out: We had very progressive nuns in our Catholic school. And a lot of — I mean, sadly, a lot of Catholics are taught, you know, the Jews killed Jesus. And, you know, it’s like — and our nuns were like, “No, no, the Jews did not kill Jesus. The Italians killed Jesus.” All right, that’s — it’s a fact. These are Romans. That’s who did it, but — I think because the nuns were all Irish, too, by the way. I think there’s an Irish-Italian thing going on there. But so, none of that happened, what he just said. OK.

But that’s true for most of what they — they speak — there’s some kind — can you ask me to explain this? I can’t explain it. Nobody can explain it, because it seems like an alien invasion has taken place. These seem like pod people, you know. MoveOn posted a great photo on Instagram yesterday of the shot of them sitting there. And what it looks — it really looks like Invasion of the Pod People. They have come here. They’ve taken over our human form. And they just spew things that are just completely not true. I believe if Trump told them that the sun rose in the west, they’d back that 100%. None of it matters to them. They don’t care.

And you’re right. When I was going up — I mean, my grandfather, I mean, he was born in the 19th century, so he came out of those Republicans that were Lincoln people, and they were abolitionists. They supported, you know, women’s right to vote, etc. So, no, he wouldn’t even recognize this at all.

But I think now — and what I encourage people to do, especially over the holidays, if you’ve got a Republican relative coming over for Christmas dinner or — I was going to say “for Hanukkah,” but I don’t know why, first of all, you’d have a Republican relative. And second of all, I don’t even know why he would come. But let’s say you do. You can’t spend any time on — don’t waste any of your energy. All of our energy has to be on getting out the people who are the majority of this country, the majority of our fellow Americans. And we couldn’t say this during the early women’s movement, during Vietnam, during the civil rights movement. We couldn’t say the majority of Americans support civil rights. King had to — and Malcolm X and everybody had to — there was work to be done, serious work. We don’t have to do any work. The majority of Americans believe climate change is real. The majority of Americans believe women should be paid the same as men. The majority of Americans believe the minimum wage is too low. Go down the whole list, the majority agree with what is discussed on this show every single day. So, hats off to you and to everybody else who’s worked all these years. The majority of our fellow Americans now share these progressive values. So, the onus is on us then: How do we get the vote out with the people that already agree with us?

AMY GOODMAN: Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore. I interviewed him with Democracy Now!’s Nermeen Shaikh. When we come back, he talks about why he thinks President Trump could win re-election despite impeachment. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “Impeach the President” by The Honey Drippers. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we spend the hour with Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore, his most recent documentary, Fahrenheit 11/9. His other films include Michael Moore in TrumpLand, Fahrenheit 9/11, Bowling for Columbine, Sicko, Capitalism: A Love Story, Where to Invade Next and Roger & Me. Michael Moore has just launched a new project, a podcast called Rumble with Michael Moore.

As Democracy Now!'s Nermeen Shaikh and I continued our interview with Michael, we asked him about Trump's comments at a rally on impeachment night, when Trump spoke about Michigan Democrat Debbie Dingell. Michael Moore is from Michigan. Debbie Dingell holds the seat formerly held by her husband John Dingell, who died earlier this year and held the distinction as longest-serving U.S. congressmember.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Debbie Dingell, that’s a real beauty. So she calls me up like eight months ago. Her husband was ill, long time. But I didn’t give him the B treatment. I didn’t give him the C or the D. I could have. Nobody would ask, you know. I gave the A-plus treatment. “Take down the flags.” “Why are you taking them down?” For ex-Congressman Dingell.” “Oh, OK.” “Do this. Do that. Do that, for Rotunda, everything.” I gave him the — everything. That’s OK. I don’t want anything for it. I don’t need anything for anything. She calls me up: “It’s the nicest thing that’s ever happened. Thank you so much. John would be so thrilled. He’s looking down. He’d be so thrilled. Thank you so much, sir.” I said, “That’s OK, don’t worry about it.” Maybe he’s looking up. I don’t know.

AMY GOODMAN: So, there he is, President Trump, in Michigan, in Battle Creek, attacking the Congressmember Debbie Dingell and her recently deceased husband John Dingell.

MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, right. And I know — obviously, I know both of them, knew him, know her. Michigan. Yes, that — what’s surprising? He’s crass and cruel, and he’s a bully. And if you ever went through elementary school or middle school or high school, you know who the bully is. You know how the bully behaves. That’s the way it works for him.

AMY GOODMAN: And you talk about the importance of understanding President Trump. Explain why he would say this in Battle Creek, Michigan. How is Dingell viewed? How is the now-deceased —

MICHAEL MOORE: Well, no —

AMY GOODMAN: — congressman, who he said is looking up from hell?

MICHAEL MOORE: Yes. Well, I think — and, actually, I had tickets to that event. But once it was announced that Wednesday was going to be impeachment day, and then I’m waiting 'til that morning to decide: Shall we fly to Michigan? Because we had — I actually got tickets, you can sign up and get, under a different name. And so, we were all going to go to Battle Creek, because we all know Battle Creek in Michigan. You know, Battle Creek invented the breakfast, right? Both Kellogg's and Post are there. And so, all your Frosted Flakes — are you Frosted Flakes or more Captain Crunch — Cap’n Crunch? I’m guessing you’re not Cap’n Crunch. OK. So, but we wanted to go there.

So I had friends go. And they said you can’t really tell by the sound levels and the way the picture is framed there, but in the greater arena people were stunned. They were like — and it’s like one of those moments where you say, “Yeah, with some people, there is a bridge too far for them.” That was a bridge too far. And they were — and the sort of laughter you hear wasn’t laughing at that this man is in hell, who just died, but their laughing, it’s that nervous laughter of “I can’t believe he just said that.” And so, more of that, Mr. Trump. More of that. That will help.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think that’s where Christianity Today is coming from, Billy Graham’s founded magazine that just said Trump not only should be impeached, but should be ousted?

MICHAEL MOORE: Ousted and jailed, I hope, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: The most powerful evangelical magazine.

MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah. No, I think that’s what — here’s what I — honestly, I hold a position on the Senate trial that I don’t think many people have. But I’ll tell you how we can — how I think it could possibly happen where he could be removed. All right? First of all, Nancy Pelosi is doing the right thing by holding it up until we have a real court, not a kangaroo court, because we need to be able to call John Bolton as a witness. And John Bolton, I predict, will be the Alexander Butterfield of this trial. Alexander Butterfield was the person that worked in the Nixon White House who just blurted out there — I mean, I think they knew ahead of time, but the public didn’t know — just blurted out, during the impeachment hearings for Nixon, that Nixon had taped every conversation in the Oval Office since the beginning. And the public was like, “What?” And, of course, those tapes helped to bring Nixon down. Bolton knows what’s on that national security server, where they were hiding the Ukraine call. Right after the Ukraine call, all the Trump loyalists got together, as we now know, and said, “We’ve got to place that — that’s illegal, what just happened. We have to place that on that server, that secure server, so nobody ever finds it.”

OK, now let me ask you this, and the people watching: Do you think that’s the first time they put something on that server in the last three years? Do you think that perhaps that was just the very first time Trump broke the law, tried to extort somebody, bribe somebody? No. We all know the answer. Even Republicans know it. That’s why they don’t want the witnesses. They don’t want Bolton, because Bolton, even though he’s not one of us, he will not lie under oath. He will tell the truth. He will say, “I happen to know we put other things on that server, too.” And at that point, the server is going to have to be subpoenaed, and the American people are going to hear what else is on that server. And it’s going to make Ukraine look like, you know, “no-kraine.” I mean, it’s going to be like people — the average American is going to stop looking for where Ukraine is on the map, and they’re going to start — like, they’re not going to believe what they’re going to hear. That’s my — so, that can happen. That’s why Pelosi and these guys are pushing. And John Roberts, remember, is presiding over this. So —

AMY GOODMAN: The chief justice of the United States, of the U.S. Supreme Court.

MICHAEL MOORE: Yes, of the trial in the Senate. He’ll preside over it. Maybe he has some say in this, too. Let’s say it happens. Here’s what could happen. There’s 53 Republicans. Trump can keep the majority of them as his supporters, 33 of them. Thirty-three of the 53 can still, “Yay, Donald!” But we only need 20 to remove him. All right?

I believe this, Amy. OK? And I know this is going to sound crazy, but crazier things have happened in our lifetime. All right? Nobody ever expected Mandela out of prison, let alone become the president of South Africa. I never thought I’d see the Berlin Wall come down. Gay marriage, same-sex marriage? After 2004, when 14 states put it in their constitution making it a crime to be in love with somebody of your gender? No. We have witnessed things that we never thought — a black man being elected president of the United States. Never in your life did you think that would happen. You know, 12, 15 years ago, you never would have thought that. So you have to go with me on the possibility of this, of why we should push for a real trial in the Senate, because if it comes out that there’s other things on that server, and if we hear what’s on that server, he’s going to lose 20 senators.

Here’s how he’s going to lose them. There’s going to be 20 who are going to be deathly afraid — there are already five or six Republicans that are afraid they’re going to lose their Senate seat this coming year. But there will be 10 Republicans, of the 53, who are going to be scared to death that they are going to be removed, either in 2020, 2022 or 2024. And they are going to, out of self-interest, not go down with the ship, not go down with Trump. And they are going to vote to remove him because of what’s been revealed. That’s 10.

The other 10 is the royal — we’ll call the religious 10, led by Mitt Romney. These are people, for their own reasons — no judgment — but they actually do believe. They’re real believers. And they have had to hold their nose at the immorality of this guy, the nose that Christianity Today could no longer hold, when they wrote that editorial that he has to go. There are 10. I believe there are 10 true believers, who believe in their Christianity enough to where they find him repulsive, repugnant, and stands for — against everything, the things that they believe in. And there are going to be 10 of those, led by Romney, that are going to say, “I, morally, cannot support this any longer.” I want to believe, of the 53, there are 10 who have a conscience and who truly believe in their Christianity, or their Mormonism, to the point where they are not going to attach themselves throughout history to this man. They don’t want their kids to grow up, their grandkids to grow up to be like this. It’s an awful, awful thing. They know it. A lot of them know it inside.

AMY GOODMAN: How does Nancy Pelosi guarantee this?

MICHAEL MOORE: Well, she does it —

AMY GOODMAN: How does she get this promise?

MICHAEL MOORE: She’s doing what she can do right now by not giving them the articles of impeachment. There’s going to be a big fight. This could end up in court. This could — but she did — I think she did the right thing. And I think that if she’s successful, if witnesses — the latest poll on that one, 72% of the American public believe that witnesses should be called. Even Republicans believe that. The witnesses should be called. If Bolton is called, if Bolton tells the truth of what’s on that server, boom. Mic drop.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: But no Republican in the House supported either article of impeachment.

MICHAEL MOORE: Right, yeah. Well, because they still think they can get away with it. The key factor here is the revelation of more than just Ukraine, of things that really affect people in their daily lives. You know, how many times have we seen in the past when the mic is accidentally left on and some politician says how much they don’t give a crap about the working person, or, well, Mitt Romney himself, when it was left on, talking about all those have-nots, all the takers. You know, man, I mean, I’m telling you, something even far worse than that has been hidden on that server. They don’t want the American people to hear it, because if the American people heard it, even people that don’t share my politics would say that’s enough. And there would be, hopefully, 10 senators who want to get re-elected and maybe might not now, and they’re going to look out for themselves. And there’s going to be 10 who actually live by a code, and they have for now three years subjugated that. They’ve bowed down to the devil. And they know it, and they feel awful about it, and they are going to — they’re going to say, “Enough,” once we hear what else is on that server.

That’s my — there’s my optimistic, possible scenario of what could happen. I know everybody is full of, “No, it’s not going to happen. Nothing we can do.” But I know — I am not a cynic. I am an optimist. I do believe — but I don’t believe in hope. I am against hope. I am, seriously. I think hope is a fool’s errand right now. We need action. I don’t need anybody sitting around hoping. Forget hope. Get up. Rise up. Turn off the TV. Put down your device. Get out there and be involved, you know, in your neighborhood. Just decide right now. The primaries are coming up. The caucuses are coming up. Just get involved. If you don’t want to work with the local Democrats, don’t. Organize people yourself. Appoint yourself neighborhood captain for Bernie. Don’t even bother the campaign with it. I mean, they probably don’t like me saying this, but I just think if people will just take their government in their own hands and do it right now — don’t do it in May, do it now — we have a chance here. We have a fighting chance.

AMY GOODMAN: You say, Michael, that if the election were held today, Trump would win. Let’s go to Trump on impeachment night. Just as Nancy Pelosi was saying, yes, that President Trump was impeached, and reading the numbers, the vote, 230, 229, he was speaking in your home state of Michigan. He was speaking in Battle Creek.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: With today’s illegal, unconstitutional and partisan impeachment, the do-nothing Democrats — and they are do nothing; all they want to do is focus on this, what they could be doing — are declaring their deep hatred and disdain for the American voter. This lawless, partisan impeachment is a political suicide march for the Democrat Party. Have you seen my polls in the last four weeks? It’s crazy.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s President Trump, impeachment night, in your state. But interestingly, you kind of agree with him. You think he would win now.

MICHAEL MOORE: I think if the election were held today — Hillary won by 3 million popular votes. I believe whoever the Democrat is next year is going to win by 4 to 5 million popular votes. There’s no question in my mind that people who stayed home, who sat on the bench, they’re going to pour out, in California, New York and — you know, but also in Texas and whatever, I mean, places that Trump will probably win, but, yeah, there’s going to be a much higher percentage of people voting against him.

The problem is, is that he will — if the vote were today, I believe, he would win the electoral states that he would need, because, living out there, I will tell you, his level of support has not gone down one inch. In fact, I’d say it’s even more rabid than it was before, because they’re afraid now. They’re afraid he could lose, because they watched his behavior. So they are voracious in their appetite for Donald Trump. That’s the bad news.

The good news is, again, number one, never forget, there’s more of us than there are of them. The majority of the American people agree with us. Seventy percent of the voters next year are women, people of color and young adults. OK? All that on our side.

So, what we have to do is we have to make sure we don’t give them another Hillary Clinton to vote for. The Democrats who are encouraging moderation, go to the center — you know, “Let’s not upset the angry white guys” — that’s really what it is. You know, the voter they’re trying to convince — “That’s why we’ve got to have Biden. You know, we’ve got to have Klobuchar. We’ve got to have somebody that is somewhere there, wherever that middle is now.” There’s really nobody in that middle, by the way. Even the Fox News poll last week showed that 54% supported impeachment and conviction, and 40-some percent didn’t. And then they asked the question: How many of you would support impeachment but no removal? It was at 4%, 5%. I mean, it was like — there’s nobody in that trying to have it both ways. So, it is polarized, but for a good reason. Polarization is always talked about like it’s a bad thing. I think it’s a good thing. I think if you think women should have the right to vote, I don’t think there’s a middle position on that. You either believe that women should vote or women shouldn’t vote. You either believe that a fertilized egg is a human being or not. There’s no middle ground there.

And so, our side has got to take this by the reins, and it’s got to have the courage of our convictions to fight this. And if we do this, then he won’t win the electoral states. Remember, Hillary only lost Michigan by two votes per precinct. That’s it. And it’s not because Lunch Bucket Joe stayed home, you know, or voted for Trump. It’s because the — when they talk about the working class, Amy, this just drives me crazy. “Oh, you know, Trump won all these working-class votes in Michigan and Pennsylvania.” No. What happened was, is that the Democratic Party didn’t stand up in the way that they should have for what the youth wanted, for what people of color needed. And there were 90,000 people in Michigan, almost 90,000, who went to the polls, mostly Democrats, in very large numbers of them, in Detroit, Flint, Pontiac, Saginaw — these are all black cities, majority black. They stood in line in the cold for two to three hours to vote. They went in there, and they voted for state rep, state Senate, county commission. We don’t have dog catcher. We have drain commissioner, the person in charge of the sewage. That’s the lowest name on the ballot. They stood there. They voted for the Democrats all down ballot and left the top box blank. She only lost Michigan by 10,000, 11,000 votes. Ninety thousand wanted to send a message to the Democratic Party: “You forgot us a long time ago out here, and we will not put up with this anymore. We’re not going to vote for Trump, but we’re not going to tolerate you sending us another Republican-lite Democrat.”

If we go that route — if we go that route, it’s guaranteed we will lose the Electoral College. We will win when we put somebody on that ballot that excites the base — women, people of color, young people. When they wake up that morning and they feel the way that many of us, many of you watching, felt the morning that you were going to — in 2008, and you were going to get to go and vote for Barack Obama, and you couldn’t believe this was happening in your lifetime, that if you remember that feeling — you know, I’m not talking about — we’re not going to discuss his eight years; I’m just talking about that morning. That feeling has got to happen in the 18-to-35-year-old demographic. It has to happen with people of color and with women. We already feel that way. They already feel that way. It’s just: Will they come out and vote for a centrist, moderate candidate? I don’t think that is going to happen. They’re going to come out and vote for the fighter, for the person that shares their values.

And the values of the majority of this country are the progressive values, in my opinion. I’m for Bernie Sanders. But I understand why people want to vote for Elizabeth Warren or — I don’t know — well, nobody else, actually, has those particular values. So, both of them are good. I’ve had Elizabeth in a couple of my films. But Bernie Sanders, Bernie Sanders has the record. When Elizabeth said there, a few weeks ago, that she voted Republican until 1996, that really kind of took me. But I think, “OK, well, we welcome everybody. And if you used to vote for Republicans, fine.”

But Bernie, go back to Bernie in 1963, the photo of him — I don’t know if anybody has it in the control room — of him being arrested as a college student in a civil rights demonstration in Chicago, 1963. That’s Bernie Sanders. They’re hauling him away. He’s not doing the thing that they teach us to do in civil disobedience where you just go limp and let them take — he’s actually — he’s fighting the cops. You know, that’s Bernie Sanders. He’s never, never changed. And so, I know that there’s a history. So many of his ideas are now the popular way, in terms of minimum wage, in terms of equal pay, mass incarceration, these things, you know. And look, I mean, just like any candidate, he’s a politician. You know, people watching this will have their disagreements or whatever. But one thing you can’t disagree with is, he has been true to his convictions. He will fight like hell for us. The fact that 52% of young people are for him — in the latest poll, 52% of young voters are for him; the millennial that’s running, 2%. Two percent of 18-to-35-year-olds are for the person their age. Young people want —

AMY GOODMAN: You’re talking about Pete Buttigieg?

MICHAEL MOORE: Yeah, Pete Buttigieg, yes. I’m not trying to avoid trying to pronounce the name. It is Buttigieg. No, but the youngest people want the oldest person. Why? Why? How could that be?

I think it’s because they know their future is screwed. The future of this planet is — they probably think, and they may not be right, that it’s already too late. I mean, Bill McKibben came on this show 10, 12 years ago and told us if we’ve got above — if we went above 350 parts per million of carbon in the atmosphere, that’s it. There’s no turning back. There’s no reversing it. We’re at 415 parts. The younger generation — see, myself, you know, I will probably make it out of here without the awful, horrific collapse. I’ll see some of it. We’re seeing some of it now. Bernie, he’s fighting for this. They know he’s fighting for their future. Bernie has no future. No offense, if he’s watching. I mean, live long and prosper. But let’s just admit, he’s in the final quarter of his life. You know? And he’s willing to give up his final years to fight so that these 18-to-35-year-olds will have a future. And they know that. That’s why they’re for him.

And I say to other adults my age, “Maybe we owe it to the young people, because we were supposed to leave them a better country. We were supposed to leave them a better planet. And we, the '60s and ’70s generation, we haven't done that. So maybe we owe it to these young people to get behind the person they want. It’s their future. That’s our responsibility.”

AMY GOODMAN: Oscar-winning filmmaker Michael Moore. When we come back, we talk about one of the main topics of the election so far for voters: healthcare. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back in a minute.