AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show with President Trump’s push to end collective bargaining rights for federal workers that have helped to lead the resistance to cuts by billionaire Elon Musk’s so-called Department of Government Efficiency by signing up thousands of new members joining protests and by filing many lawsuits.

On Monday, the National Treasury Employees Union, which represents workers in 37 federal agencies, sued the Trump administration over an executive order Trump signed Thursday night that calls the unions hostile to his agenda and could block collective bargaining rights for nearly half the federal workforce and overturn the ability of unions to represent them in negotiations or in court. Unions have called Trump’s order the biggest attack on the labor movement in U.S. history. The largest federal employee union, the American Federation of Government Employees, says it will also challenge the order in court.

This comes after a federal judge recently ruled in favor of AFGE and its allies in another case, ordering the Trump administration to reinstate federal probationary workers fired at six agencies.

Meanwhile, another round of layoffs for federal workers is underway this morning, this time for as many as 10,000 workers at the Health and Human Services Department.

For more, we go directly to Washington, D.C., where we’re joined by Everett Kelley, president of the American Federation of Government Employees.

To say the least, Everett Kelley, your union is under attack. Talk about President Trump’s executive order and how you’re fighting back.

EVERETT KELLEY: OK, well, first of all, thank you for having me here today.

You know, as you know, this executive order uses national security for their actions. However, we know this is just pretext, not justification, because there’s no way that you’ve had employees, such as nurses and doctors and scientists, you know, in a collective bargaining agreement for decades, and all of a sudden now they are not able to be in an agreement. You know, that’s strictly pretextual and has nothing to do with national security. And —

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Everett —

EVERETT KELLEY: — this is the thing that — go ahead, Juan.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: No, no. Go ahead.

EVERETT KELLEY: You know, I was just going to say this is nothing but retaliation against our union for standing up for its members. But this is our job. This is what we should do, is stand up for our members, because, you know, it’s been proven that what this administration is trying to do to federal employees is illegal. And we will continue to fight for the membership. We will continue to fight for America. And we will continue to fight for democracy. That’s our job. And we are outraged by this.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Could you talk about to what extent is this historic, these attacks on federal workers? How does this compare to what other administrations have done in the past in terms of the federal workforce?

EVERETT KELLEY: You know, again, this is — you know, this workforce was under the first Trump administration. He didn’t think that there was a need at that time, when you had a pandemic going on, when you had crisis in the world — you know, he didn’t think there was a need to place these employees under this national security threat. And that’s exactly what it is. It’s designed to silence workers. It’s designed to make sure that employees keep their head down and don’t say anything, don’t hold anyone accountable. Because for decades these employees have been under contract, it’s never been a problem. Like I said, even under the Trump first administration, it wasn’t a problem.

And all of a sudden, it’s a problem. Why? Because we’ve been winning in court, we’ve been challenging this administration, and we will continue to challenge this administration. What they don’t understand is this. AFGE is here to represent the members. We will be here. We was here before this administration came on board. We’ll be here after it leaves. That’s the thing that they hadn’t understood about AFGE.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, since 1978, with the Civil Service Reform Act, all federal workplaces are considered open shops, which means the workers are not required to pay union dues. Can you talk about what’s been happening in recent months in terms of federal employees deciding to pay up union dues?

EVERETT KELLEY: Well, you know, and that’s true. You know, this is an open shop. No one is required to pay union dues. When people join this union, they voluntarily join. And over the past few months, people have been noticing the attack on federal employees. They are realizing the need for a union, and people are joining this union. I mean, it’s been massive amounts of employees that have decided, “You know what? I want to be a part of this union,” because they see that the union is standing there, you know, in the way — matter of fact, you know, I just believe this, that if we don’t stand, the very democracy of this country will soon be gone. And people realize that. Employees realize that. And so they are now saying, “You know what? I want to be a part of this union, because this union is standing for America.”

AMY GOODMAN: Everett Kelley, I’m wondering if you can respond to the federal judge ruling in favor of your union, the AFGE, ordering the Trump administration to reinstate federal probationary workers. Can you explain what kind of union protection probationary workers have? And let’s be clear, there’s different kinds of probationary workers. You’ve got the workers who’ve maybe just come on board in the last year or two, and you’ve got the longtime workers who get a promotion, and so then they’re in a period of probation. So, they could be there for 20 years, they get elevated, and suddenly they’re fired.

EVERETT KELLEY: Yeah, you know, this is unheard of. First of all, you know, to be a probationary employee is just like you said. You know, it could be a person that just had been doing such an amazing job that they got a promotion, and they’ve been on that promotion for 90 days, or they’ve been on that promotion for a year. And, you know, this administration has come in and said, “Because you’re a probationary employee, you’re fired.” Right? But this is the thing they need to understand: They’re not on probation; they’re on a probationary appointment.

And this administration was wrong. The court admits that they were wrong. The court showed that they was wrong. And, you know, we are going to continue to make sure that we point out these irregularities and these illegal actions that this administration has taken against federal employees. These probationary employees was very vulnerable, because a lot of them have very few rights. This administration knew that, and so they came after them. But AFGE stood up for them. AFGE is going to continue to stand up for any employee that is wrongfully terminated.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to ask you — DOGE and the Trump administration have pushed this reasoning for their aggressive dismantling of federal services: The federal government is too big. Can you talk about this issue, that they claim that there’s too many people working, especially since the biggest employer is the Defense Department in terms of civilian employees?

EVERETT KELLEY: OK, again, you know, it’s just pretextual. It is a way of turning people’s attention away from the real issue, because when you look at the facts, the population has exploded since 1970, but the federal workforce is the same today as it was in 1970, in the ’70s. So, that is just pretextual. That is not true.

And certainly, you know, this workforce is needed. The services that is provides to the American people, these are the people that do that. These are the workers. These are nurses that provide the services for the veterans that need assistance. These are the people that provide the services for the food inspection, to make sure that the food we eat is safe; the air we breathe, in EPA, is safe. These are the people that make sure that the public fly safely. That’s under attack.

You know, so this is just pretextual. It is not that the government is too large. You know, these are people that are trying to take over the government and give contracts to their billionaire buddies. That’s the real issue here.

AMY GOODMAN: Everett Kelley, as we begin to wrap up, there are protests at every level. You’ve got, as we speak, New Jersey Senator Booker on the floor of the Senate filibustering. You’ve got lawsuits like yours and those all over the country. And you’ve got people in the streets. You’re going to be speaking at the April 5th mass mobilization on Saturday at the “Hands Off” rally organized by Indivisible, where I think around the country there are going to be something like 800 rallies protesting Trump and Elon Musk’s, what they’re calling a power grab. Can you talk about — give us a little preview about what you’re going to say.

EVERETT KELLEY: Well, first of all, you know, we want to point out the facts. You know, we want the American people to know that what’s happening here is not what’s being said by the administration. What’s happening is that there is a power grab, because this is about power. This is about an administration wanting to have their way regardless of the rule of law, you know. And it’s so full of lawlessness, and we are trying to point that out to the American people.

We are also trying to make the point that, you know, if you continue to reach and grab the federal workforce and disallow them to do their job, it’s going to affect the services that they provided to the American people. Because, you know, the American — the federal workforce do their job so well, in my opinion, that many times they are unnoticed. When a veteran gets the services that he or she needs, you know, that veteran worker that’s doing that work is unnoticed. When the food that we eat is inspected and people are not getting sick by that, that food inspector’s job is really unnoticed. When the America fly safely, you know, the workers at TSA, it’s really unnoticed. When the air we breathe is good, that work is really unnoticed. So, they are doing their job, and they’re doing it effectively. But the minute that they are not able to do their job and they are downsizing these positions, then the American people are going to feel that. And it’s going to be dangerous and detrimental to the health and well-being of Americans.

You know, so that’s why we are making this rally known. That’s why we are asking people to participate nationwide. Like you said, we’re looking at over 800 of these events. And I appreciate Indivisible for doing what they’re doing to bring some awareness to what’s happening across this country.

AMY GOODMAN: Everett Kelley, we want to thank you very much for being with us, president of the American Federation of Government Employees, the largest government worker union in the country.