AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.

We begin today’s show with one of Hollywood’s most celebrated filmmakers, Ryan Coogler. Although just 38 years old, Coogler has made a series of acclaimed hits, from Creed to the Marvel Black Panther films. He also co-produced the Fred Hampton biopic Judas and the Black Messiah. Born in Oakland, California, Ryan Coogler’s first film was the Sundance and Cannes award-winning Fruitvale Station from 2013 about the killing of Oscar Grant on the BART train platform.

Ryan Coogler’s latest film is Sinners, made with his wife Zinzi Evans, a horror film set in 1932 in the Mississippi Delta during Jim Crow. The film has two stars. They’re both actor Michael B. Jordan. He plays identical twin brothers Smoke and Stack, who’ve just returned to their hometown after years living in Chicago working for the gangster Al Capone. The twins purchase an old sawmill from a racist white landowner to start a juke joint for the local Black community, when they’re confronted by a supernatural evil. Oh, and did I say it’s a vampire film? This is the film’s trailer.

SMOKE: [played by Michael B. Jordan] I’ve been all over this world. I’ve seen men die in ways I ain’t even know was possible.

STACK: [played by Michael B. Jordan] I love you, brother. Be careful.

SMOKE: I will.

Of all the things that I’ve seen, I ain’t ever seen no demons, no ghosts, no magic. ’Til now.

Hey, get back inside.

GAMBLER 2: Let me in, man! There’s some weird [bleep] goin’ on out here!

PREACHER: You keep dancing with the devil…

GAMBLER 2: Let me in! You gotta let me in! Smoke, let me in! Smoke, let me in here! Smoke, you gotta let me in!

PREACHER: One day he’s gonna follow you home.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s the trailer for the new, critically acclaimed vampire horror film Sinners.

We go now to Oakland, California, where we’re joined by the film’s acclaimed director, writer, Ryan Coogler. His other feature films include Fruitvale Station, Creed, the record-breaking Black Panther, its sequel, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.

Ryan, it’s great to have you back on Democracy Now!, after we talked to you in Sundance more than a decade ago. This is an astounding film.

RYAN COOGLER: Thank you, Amy. It’s good to see you, as well. And I appreciate the kind words about it. We worked really hard on it, me and my wife, Zinzi Coogler, our partner, Sevak Ohanian, and all of us at Proximity Media. You know, this film meant everything to us, and it’s been a joy to share it with the world and have time to talk about it with people like you.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, talk about how you developed the idea for this and wrote it, I mean, this horror film, this film about everything from Jim Crow to slavery, the magnificent music, and the fact that you made it a vampire film.

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s such a such a great — such a great group of questions. You know, like, to be honest with you, my family is like many families in California. We’re products of the second wave of the Great Migration, meaning that, you know, before California, my family was in the South, in the Gulf states primarily, but also some of them were in Mississippi. And it’s ironic, because what my grandmother and her mom before her and my mom are known for is their gumbo. They cook a style of gumbo that comes from Port Arthur, Texas. And as you know that the dish is probably most famous in Louisiana, but it’s combining a lot of different elements into one uniform dish that’s beloved. My family is known for making some of the best gumbo. And this was my opportunity to make some cinematic gumbo. You know, I took some things that might seem disparate, you know, in a description, but I think they go very well together.

You know, I grew up in Oakland. And one of the most important people in my life was my uncle, James Edmonson, who was a Mississippi man who married my grandmother’s younger sister Sammie, who the main character in the film is named after. But for a considerable amount of time, he was the oldest male member of my family, and I just really loved spending time with him. And all he wanted to do when he was off from work was listen to blues music, drink Old Taylor whiskey and maybe catch a game of San Francisco Giants on the radio, you know. And I associated that music with him. You know, I never felt like it belonged to me. It felt like it was music for — you know, for older people. But he passed away in 2015, and I was devastated. I was away from home, as I normally was, making a film called Creed, when I got the news. And after he passed, I started to listen to old blues records to kind of remind myself of him. And if I did it enough, I would feel like he was there with me, almost like I was conjuring his spirit. And the base to the idea started with that.

And when I started to do my research on blues music, specifically the Delta blues music that came out of that Mississippi Delta, I discovered that, you know, there’s a firm argument to be made that this art form, the Delta blues, is our country’s most important contribution to global popular culture. You know, I think it’s probably our most important artistic contribution to the world. And it was such a profound discovery, that this music made by people who were, you know, for all intents and purposes, living under a back-breaking form of American apartheid, you know, denied their humanity on a daily basis, would create something so artistically excellent that it would affect global culture from that time forward.

And that was what I sought to make. I sought to make something personal and true, but also epic and mythical. You know, I grew up loving horror stories in literature and in cinema. You know, so I combined that, as well. You know, I had an appetite for showing more of myself, after having over a decade working in franchise filmmaking, you know, if that makes sense. I was very passionate about those projects, but those projects weren’t completely my own. So I was excited to incorporate some elements of genres and styles that I was interested in.

But also, the last thing I’ll tell you, Amy, was, through my research into the music, I learned more about the music industry and the music business as it was built out, and how much the concept of genre is related to racism, you know, the classification of different types of music. You have a song sung by a Black artist, and a white artist can sing that same song in homage to that artist, and the industry would say, “Hey, this Black person’s song, we’re going to put that in one category.” Back then, it might have been called “race records.” “And then, this other white musician, we’ll invent a new genre to keep a separation here of these groups of people. Maybe we’ll call that 'bluegrass,' or we’ll call it 'country,' or we’ll call it 'rock ’n' roll.’” You know, even though it was the same song sung the same way, they were looking at the color of the skin of the person who was singing it, and enforcing that apartheid even through the artistic business model. So, I wanted to make a film that was kind of raging against the concept of genre and making the audience constantly question it, even while they were watching it, whether that’s genres of music or genres of filmmaking.

AMY GOODMAN: This film is definitely genre-bending, genre-shattering, crosses so many genres. And again, it’s about vampires. So, before we go to this clip, can you set it up for us?

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, absolutely. So, this is a clip with a character named Cornbread, who’s played by the great Omar Benson Miller. And he was kind of hired to be the bouncer for the juke joint. And he’s gone for a little bit. He goes to use the restroom, and he comes back. And since he’s been gone, the character Smoke, who’s one of the twins, who’s actually the older twin, played by Michael B. Jordan, and the character Delta Slim, played by Delroy Lindo, and the character Annie, played by Wunmi Mosaku, they’ve all had a supernatural encounter that’s kind of raised their antennas to the fact that something is going on that might be greater than they can understand. And Wunmi is a conjure woman who has a lot of experience, you know, with hoodoo and mysticism, and she’s trying to, you know, lean on that knowledge to figure out exactly what they’re dealing with. And a light bulb goes off when this character is struggling to enter the space.

AMY GOODMAN: Here’s a clip from Sinners.

CORNBREAD: [played by Omar Benson Miller] What y’all doing? Just step aside and let me on in now.

ANNIE: [played by Wunmi Mosaku] Why you need him to do that? You big and strong enough to push past us?

CORNBREAD: Well, that wouldn’t be too polite, now, would it, Miss Annie? I don’t know why I’m talking to you anyway. Smoke.

ANNIE: Don’t talk to him. You’re talking to me right now. Why you can’t just walk your big ass up in here without an invite, huh? Go ahead. Admit to it.

CORNBREAD: Admit to what?

ANNIE: That you dead.

CORNBREAD: Smoke, you listening to this? Now, now, we out here playing games, telling ghost stories, in place of doing what we ought to do.

DELTA SLIM: [played by Delroy Lindo] And what is it we’re supposed to be doing?

CORNBREAD: Being kind to one another, and being polite. Now, we is one peoples, and we shouldn’t go in, barging into other folks’ places uninvited, so…

SMOKE: [played by Michael B. Jordan] You’ve been in and out of here all day. Ain’t never need an invite then. Yeah, something ain’t adding up.

CORNBREAD: Can I at least get my money?

ANNIE: Careful.

AMY GOODMAN: Phew. Yep, it’s scary. Sinners. We’re talking to the acclaimed filmmaker, the writer of Sinners, that just opened around the world. In fact, Ryan, you’ve just come back from London, right? I’m wondering, vampires, what it means to different cultures, and what vampires mean to you.

RYAN COOGLER: That’s a great question. I think that the vampire is one of those supernatural creatures that is kind of at the top tier of global consciousness. And I think that’s because you’ve seen the concept of the vampire pop up in different cultures almost independent of each other. You know, every place where you’ll find human beings has a version of this, this creature. But it’s also permeated, you know, two of the most widely spread storytelling art forms: you know, literature, with Dracula and all the books that have come after that, and also cinema, with Dracula and its adaptations and all the shows and films that have come after that. You know, you just got some great, great, great cinema that involves this mythical character.

And for me, you know, what I think makes vampires so exciting is that they are very associated with human behavior. You know, they’re associated with seduction and lust and material gain, the taboo, you know. And I think that vampires, unlike zombies and werewolves, which are the other big — you know, aliens, which — the other big ones, they maintain, generally, a large degree of their humanity, you know, which makes them more frightening, I think, but also more alluring. And, you know, so, it’s just rich. It’s just rich material.

And, you know, one of my favorite stories I read is a book by Stephen King called On Writing. And I read — I remember reading this book back in 2015 when I was working on Creed. And ironically, it was the same year my uncle passed away. And I remember him talking about his process, and he had an aside about a book he wrote called Salem’s Lot. And it was so interesting, where he talked about being inspired to write a movie about Dracula, but have him somewhere in America, you know. And he pitched his wife, Tabitha, “What if I wrote a book about Dracula showing up in New York City?” And she very famously said, according to the book, “Yeah, he would just get run over by a cab.” You know, like, the city was too big. It was too complicated for Dracula to even survive crossing the street. And allegedly, Stephen King thought about that and took the note from his wife and then said, “Well, what if he arrived in a small town, you know, a sleepy American town that was kind of isolated?” And then she kind of said, “Hey, maybe you got something there.” And that became Salem’s Lot. And I remember rushing off to read that book and being so moved by it. You know, and his conversation around it in On Writing was that it was basically a combination of a book called Peyton’s Place and Dracula. You know, and I just loved the book, and I always wanted to make something that felt like it, you know? So I took that opportunity here on this movie.

AMY GOODMAN: And talk about what it was like for you going into the Deep South to make this film — I mean, you made the film around New Orleans, is that right? — and the culture there — 

RYAN COOGLER: That’s correct.

AMY GOODMAN: — and your past work, whether — and your journeys to Africa with Zinzi, your wife.

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, absolutely. So, this movie was a very interesting opportunity for me to do some research about my lineage. And I had that opportunity before with the Panther films. And in that situation, you know, me being a foundational Black American, my family has been here, you know, for over 400 years, essentially, in North America. But, you know, the Panther films allowed me to travel back to the continent of Africa and spend time there and contemplate our distant ancestry as it relates to the continent, as it relates to the diaspora. This movie afforded me the opportunity to go back to my more recent lineage, you know, a hundred years or so, and go back to Mississippi, a state that I had never been to. You know, I’m almost 40 years old, and my matrilineal grandfather was born in Mississippi. You know, my uncle, who was so important to my life, was there ’til he was a young man. And I had never been.

And it was a beautiful experience to go on that Blues Trail and spend time in those places. But it also was a harrowing experience at the same time. I went to Dockery Plantation in the Mississippi Delta, which is thought to be maybe the place where the first true Delta blues song was played, by a man called Charlie Patton. And when you go, you know, you realize that they were making this music in slave quarters, you know? And it was just this immense wealth that was owned by this plantation, like the amount of fertile land that you’ll see, the amount of crops that you’ll see, you know, and that it was also a place where most people were denied access to these resources. They were back-breakingly poor, you know. And then, at that time, you know, often these people — these were enslaved people, you know, who weren’t being paid anything. You know, so, for me to know that my family had history there, and I was touching down in that place for the first time, there was a level of guilt there for me, but there was also a level of wonder to know what my recent ancestors endured — you know what I mean? — and were able to survive and were able to make plans and affirm their humanity and affect the world, you know, with their culture. You know, I was really taken aback by it.

And while I was there, I was there with my composer, Ludwig Göransson, who made our incredible score, our incredible soundtrack. You know, I encourage folks to go out and go to their streaming platforms and listen to some of this great music that he made. You know, he was born and raised in Linköping, Sweden, thousands of miles away from the United States. But his father, you know, due to the fact that these Black musicians weren’t allowed to tour in the U.S., some of the British musicians who loved their music took them to Europe to tour, you know, and Sweden was one of the places that they played, where Ludwig’s father saw these players — Howlin’ Wolf, Albert King — as a teenager in Sweden, and was so inspired by their music that he became a blues guitarist, who then taught his son how to play. His son would end up being Ludwig and become, you know, my good friend and the composer on all of my movies. You know, Ludwig was there with me on the Blues Trail, and his father was there with him. It was a lifelong dream for his father to take this trip with him. So, Ludwig, through researching this movie, was fulfilling his 70-year-old father’s dream, you know, to see the birthplace of this music that changed his life so much, you know. And that enabled me to understand, like, just like the global impact of these incredible human beings, who, due to the shame and the misinformation associated with the time that they came up in, and the exploitation that was happening and the indignities that were happening, you know, we don’t look at that time enough, you know? So, I took the opportunity to do so very seriously.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what’s it like working with your wife? I mean, you credit her with so much. You co-produced the film with her. What’s it like working with Zinzi on this masterpiece?

RYAN COOGLER: I mean, it’s great, man. Zinzi is my favorite person in the world. You know, I’ve been around her a long time, and still somehow it feels like it’s not long enough, you know? And she knows me really well. We’re very different, you know, which is very helpful. We got two different communication styles, two different ways of seeing the world. So, in general, if I have an itchy situation that I can’t crack, you know, because she comes at things with a different angle, normally she can crack it very easily, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: You know, I remember first meeting you and Zinzi back in 2013. Now at the big premiere in New York, there she was. There she is —

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — pregnant with your second child, the two of your second child.

RYAN COOGLER: Third. Third.

AMY GOODMAN: But this was 5:30 in the morning. This was 5:30 in the morning. It was at the Sundance Film Festival. You had just introduced Fruitvale. I said, “Would you be willing to come in at 5:30, because the show is at 6:00?” You said, “Yep, I’m there,” you said, because your uncle, Clarence Thomas, not the justice —

RYAN COOGLER: Yes, not the justice. Not of the justice.

AMY GOODMAN: — but the secretary general of the International Longshore and Warehouse Union —

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — had been on the show, loved it. And I said to you, “Can you give a message to him? Look directly into the camera.” And you said, “Hi, Uncle Bud.”

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: But having said that, I wanted to go to the second part of that conversation, as you talked at that point — I think you were working at the San Francisco — what? The juvenile detention center? You had just come out with Fruitvale.

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, the youth guidance center, yep.

AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s go to that clip.

RYAN COOGLER: I’ve never been homeless in my life, always had a home. When I first went to film school, however, because it was such a sporadic thing, I went down the Los Angeles, you know, and I didn’t have anywhere to stay yet. So I kind of had to jump-start in classes and things like that. So, for a few — I would say, for about a week and a half — you know what I mean? — I was getting dressed in my car, spending most of my time in school, you know, until I found a place. But I bumped around quite a bit. I stayed with some Jesuits — you know what I mean? — with a group of Jesuits that were in training, basically. I stayed with like a distant relative for a day or two. But I found my car to kind of be a safe haven for a little bit, you know, before I got an apartment.

AMY GOODMAN: So, Ryan, that’s you back in 2013, telling your life story. You had just done Fruitvale, first time working with, as you have from then on, with Michael B. Jordan. I don’t think most people know that part of your life, what that meant.

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, it happened very fast for me in terms of, like, the decision to go to Los Angeles and become a filmmaker, you know. And I went down there without everything figured out, you know, and I needed — I ended up needing a lot of support from a lot of different people. And I’m still close with all of those people. I’m a product of so much support that’s been poured into me, you know, from likely sources, but also very unlikely sources.

AMY GOODMAN: Is it true that Zinzi made your dream possible by paying $300 for your first movie-writing software, when you couldn’t afford it?

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah, that’s very true. That’s very true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Zinzi did buy me Final Draft, one of the kindest things anybody’s ever done for me. And yeah, we were both student athletes. You know, we would buy each other things all the time, man, you know, like — but it was often — it was rarely something as forward-thinking as that, you know, which kind of just speaks to who she is, man. And she does things like that all the time. Like, she’s an incredible gift giver.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to play that clip from 2013. It’s not so long ago. It’s a dozen years ago. And talk about —

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — what you negotiated in making Sinners, the arrangement you had with Warner Bros. The New York Times reports Warner Bros. agreed to spend $90 million to make Sinners and agreed to give you a cut of gross ticket sales, a now-rare arrangement known as “first-dollar gross,” meaning, before they recoup their costs, you’re getting money, as well. Warner also agreed — and this is absolutely key — to relinquish its ownership of the film to you after 25 years. The Times reports, quote, “Some rival film companies were horrified that Warner Bros. would give a film away, even after a period of time.” Talk about these key — 

RYAN COOGLER: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — components of your contract and why this was so critical for you, Ryan Coogler.

RYAN COOGLER: That’s a great question, Amy. What I will do is I’ll maybe add some context that maybe those articles did not. I’m not the first filmmaker to get any of these deals, you know, and Warner Bros. is not the first studio to provide these deals to a filmmaker. You know, so, like, I think that a lot has been made of my deal in particular. I’m not totally sure why. Like, I have my guesses, you know, but I’ve been in the industry long enough to know what kind of deals are possible, and nothing about this deal is a new thing. You know, it is not a — 

AMY GOODMAN: What’s your guesses, Ryan?

RYAN COOGLER: I’d rather not say. But, you know, like, the attention on what’s happening with this project, outside of it as a piece of art and as a piece of commerce, has been — has been very interesting, you know.

But for me, you know, this film was very important to me. As a writer/director, I’ve made over $2 billion at the global box office. I’m not yet 40 years old. It’s taken a lot of time, commitment, energy, and I’ve missed out on a lot of things in my life, making films that will always be owned by other people. For this one, because it was so personal, and because I had the ability to negotiate, I asked for a few things that were very important to me for this project, you know, and for what it was about and what it meant to me and my family. And thankfully, you know, I was able to get those things I was asking for from Warner Bros.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Ryan, I know you have to go, but reading from The Guardian, you’re widely considered the highest-grossing Black director in history. Your film Black Panther became the highest-grossing film of all time directed by an African American director, grossing over $1.3 billion worldwide. I can’t believe I’m saying to you, “What do you have to say to young directors?” because you are a young director. But as Sinners comes out, what you want people to take away from it and how you want to inspire — I was going to say “the next generation,” but actually your generation?

RYAN COOGLER: Well, look, I’m what’s called an elder millennial. You know, there’s a generation of filmmakers coming up behind me, like, that’s Gen Z. They call them Zoomers. But for them, I think they have an incredible advantage, just having grown up, you know, with smartphones in their pockets. You know, I don’t think that’s an advantage for their psychology. You know what I’m saying? Like, but it is an advantage for their filmmaking abilities, you know, to have access to this type of technology constantly. And I think that the movies that I see them make, when I look at things on the internet, I’m just always kind of blown away by the editing style and the way that they see the world. And we need their movies.

You know, look, for me, a lot of my business success has been put in the context of me being Black. And I think that that’s a part of — I think that’s a part of the issue when people write about, you know, what my films have done. You know, I’ll say this. The year Panther 1 came out, you know, yes, it was the highest-grossing film ever done by — yes, it was the highest-grossing film ever made by a Black person. It was also the highest-grossing film domestically that year made by anybody, you know? And for some reason, that was never talked about.

You know, so, for me, what I’ll speak to — you know, for me, what I’ll speak to, and after coming off of this movie and researching Delta blues music, you know, it’s music made by people who the state was built to make it so that they had nothing, to make it so that they had to be sharecroppers — you know what I mean? — to make it so that they couldn’t leave, to make it so that some of these plantations were so massive that they had their own currency and their own banking systems that they would pay them with. You know, they were able to make art that changed the world. That art became rock 'n' roll. That art became the country music empire. That art became hip-hop. You know, that art became house music. You know, like, the fact that their stories were so amazing and so valuable, even though they were being told that they were worthless — you know what I mean? — even though they were told that they didn’t deserve anything, you know, that has stuck with me.

And for me, you know, what I would say to not just young filmmakers — like, I think that there’s filmmakers of all ages that have yet to make their first movie. You know, so what I would say to aspiring filmmakers, regardless of their age, aspiring filmmakers, filmmakers that are just removed from where you were when you met me in 2013 — right? — I would say: Go make your movie. Go make your movie. Even if people are telling you that what you want to make a movie about is not important, keep going. Find a person who will support you. You know what I mean? Get better at your craft, and go get it done. You know what I mean? So that you’re no longer an aspiring filmmaker. You are just a filmmaker who’s looking to make your next thing.

AMY GOODMAN: Acclaimed director Ryan Coogler, the writer, producer, director of the new supernatural vampire horror film Sinners. It’s opened around the world. His past films include Fruitvale Station, Creed and the record-breaking Black Panther and its sequel, Black Panther: Wakanda Forever.

Coming up next, a less supernatural story. This one takes place now in Memphis, Tennessee, about two brothers fighting the richest man in the world, Elon Musk. Stay with us.

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AMY GOODMAN: “Séance” by Ludwig Göransson and James Blake, a song featured on the new soundtrack of the new movie Sinners.