NERMEEN SHAIKH: President Trump’s pick to lead the Department of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., appeared before the Senate Finance Committee on Wednesday. The confirmation hearing was repeatedly interrupted by protesters criticizing Kennedy’s long record of vaccine skepticism. Kennedy is a former environmental attorney who went on to lead Children’s Health Defense, a nonprofit that’s filed more than 30 lawsuits challenging vaccine and other public health mandates.

Kennedy is the son of former Attorney General Robert F. Kennedy and the nephew of President John F. Kennedy. Ahead of the hearing, JFK’s daughter, Ambassador Caroline Kennedy, called on senators to reject her cousin, who she described as a “predator” and “dangerous.”

Supporters of Kennedy see him as a leading figure in the so-called Make America Healthy Again movement. If confirmed to head HHS, Kennedy would oversee numerous agencies, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the Food and Drug Administration and the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

AMY GOODMAN: In a moment, we’ll be joined by Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon, the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee. But first, let’s turn to Senator Wyden questioning Robert F. Kennedy Jr. on Wednesday.

SEN. RON WYDEN: Mr. Kennedy, you have spent years pushing conflicting stories about vaccines. You say one thing, and then you say another. In your testimony today under oath, you denied that you were anti-vaccine, but during a podcast interview in July of 2023, you said, quote, “No vaccine is safe and effective.” In your testimony today, in order to prove you’re not anti-vax, you note that all your kids are vaccinated. But in a podcast in 2020, you said — and I quote — you would do anything, pay anything, to go back in time and not vaccinate your kids. Mr. Kennedy, all of these things cannot be true. So, are you lying to Congress today when you say you are pro-vaccine, or did you lie on all those podcasts? We have all of this on tape, by the way.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: Yeah, Senator, as you know, because it’s been repeatedly debunked, that statement that I made on the Lex Fridman Podcast was a fragment of the statement. He asked me — and anybody who actually goes and looks at that podcast will see this. He asked me, “Are there vaccines that are safe and effective?” And I said to him, “Some of the live virus vaccines are.” And I said, “There are no vaccines that are safe and effective.” And I was going to continue, “for every person.” Every medicine has people who are sensitive to them, including vaccines.

SEN. RON WYDEN: Right. So —

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: He interrupted me at that point. I’ve corrected it many times, including on national TV. You know about this, Senator Wyden, so bringing this up right now is dishonest.

SEN. RON WYDEN: Let’s be clear about what you’ve actually done, then, since you want to deny your statements. For example, you have a history of trying to take vaccines away from people. In May of 2021, you petitioned the Food and Drug Administration to not only block Americans from having access to the COVID vaccine, but to prevent any future access to the lifesaving vaccine. Are you denying that? Your name is on the petition!

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: We brought that petition after CDC recommended a COVID vaccine without any scientific basis for 6-year-old children. Most experts agree today, even the people who did it back then, that COVID vaccines are inappropriate for 6-year-old children, who basically have zero risk on COVID. That’s why I brought that lawsuit. I don’t want to — I want to emphasize this.

SEN. RON WYDEN: Mr. Kennedy, the facts —

PROTESTER: [inaudible]

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.: I don’t —

SEN. RON WYDEN: The facts —

PROTESTER: [inaudible]

SEN. MIKE CRAPO: The committee will be in order. And to the audience…

AMY GOODMAN: That was Democratic Senator Ron Wyden from Oregon. He’s the ranking member of the Senate Finance Committee, questioning President Trump’s pick to lead the Department of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., when he appeared before the committee on Wednesday. That was a brief interruption by a protester.

Senator Wyden is joining us now from the Russell Rotunda in the Senate Office Building. He also has a new book, just out. It’s called It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change.

Senator, welcome to Democracy Now! It’s great to have you with us. If you can start off by just talking about the significance of Robert F. Kennedy Jr. heading up health and human services, in charge of NIH, in charge of the Centers for Disease Control, agencies that he has long fiercely criticized?

SEN. RON WYDEN: Amy, this is one of the most important positions in the world as it relates to healthcare, because a lot of the decisions we make on medicines and therapies are copied around the world. And I was listening to what you played, and what you heard was vintage Robert Kennedy double-talk. You know, he has tried so hard to be anti-vax, and again and again and again. He belongs to organizations. He makes statements and the like. Now he desperately wants this appointment from Donald Trump, so he is trying to pretend that he’s pro-vax.

I think the reality is that he cannot be trusted, number one, and he’s unprepared. And the reason I say “unprepared” is it was clear yesterday he didn’t even understand the Medicaid program. He thought that there were premiums involved. And it was clear that he just didn’t understand the architecture of the programs he would run, if confirmed.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Senator Wyden, you’ve said that he’s, quote, “embraced conspiracy theories, quacks and charlatans” on vaccine safety and efficacy. What is your assessment on the line of questioning yesterday? Were you satisfied with the number of questions you were able to ask and others were able to ask? And what remains?

SEN. RON WYDEN: I believe my Democratic colleagues were outstanding. They went at all of the issues where he had made these very outlandish statements. He pretends that he didn’t. A number of my colleagues looked at the financial links that he benefits from when he’s doing all this anti-vax activity. I think that we put on the kind of hearing on our side that puts him on the precipice, where possibly he will not be confirmed.

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, on the one hand, you have his fierce criticism of vaccines, and it surprised many, probably, when he said he was not anti-vaccine. But he also has fierce criticism of the agriculture industry, the power of the drug industry. Can you comment on that, where you actually agree with him and where you don’t?

SEN. RON WYDEN: Certainly, when he talks about tobacco cessation — I was the one who blew the whistle on the tobacco executives lying about the addictiveness of nicotine — I certainly share views with him on matters like that. But on the big, crucial kinds of questions, for example, this COVID petition, you know, that would have made it impossible to get out the services that were so needed while we were in the eye of the storm. And his policies, I think, are going to leave Americans sicker.