NERMEEN SHAIKH: Senator Wyden, we’d also like to ask you about the White House budget office’s decision to rescind an order to freeze trillions of dollars of federal grants and loans. The initial order from Matthew Vaeth, the acting director of the White House Office of Management and Budget, set off chaos around the country, as funding for critical programs, including Medicaid, Head Start, Meals on Wheels and many others, appeared to be in jeopardy. The OMB rescinded the memo after a federal judge in Washington, D.C., temporarily halted the radical plan. This all comes as Trump has dominated the architect of Project 2025, Russell Vought, to head the OMB. During his recent confirmation hearing, Vought was questioned by our guest, by you, Democratic Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon.

SEN. RON WYDEN: I think the distillation of the Trump economic program is to give tax breaks to all the people at the top, and it’s going to be paid for by these kinds of cuts, cuts in efficient healthcare programs, like Medicaid, and hunger programs and the like. And I’d like to know: Does that concern you at all, that we have these values that are going to help the people right at the top, at the tippy top of the top, and we’re going to cut these programs like Medicaid and hunger? Are those your values? Do you think that that’s something that is in line with American values? Because I think we want everybody to have a chance to get ahead.

RUSSELL VOUGHT: Senator, I fully support the notion that we want everyone to get ahead. And we would not characterize our economic program that way. We think it’s important to give people tax cuts at all levels. The president wants to extend those tax cuts.

SEN. RON WYDEN: But what about the vulnerable people who are going to get hurt in the process?

AMY GOODMAN: So, that was Democratic Senator Ron Wyden questioning OMB nominee Russell Vought. I mean, total chaos this week. You have President Trump proposing to cut trillions of dollars from programs to the neediest Americans, and then, because of enormous outcry, he pulls back. And you are leading the charge, Senator Wyden, to call for a postponement of the vote on Russell Vought to be the head of OMB. Can you talk about him as one of the key architects of Project 2025, and what that is, and why you’re calling for this delay?

SEN. RON WYDEN: There is no question in my mind that this is a person who has got a laser target out there for Medicaid. Medicaid, of course, is a lifeline for millions of people. And in fact, one of the things that was good this week that happened is, when we heard that Donald Trump was going to cause bedlam in the Medicaid portals, the activists who are supportive of Medicaid got in touch with me, I put it online, and all over America so many people spoke out against Trump’s efforts to cause harm to Medicaid. We blocked it within 12 hours. So, we’re going to be all-in in this fight. And Russell Vought is the architect of it. The Project 2025 effort features a number of key kinds of questions, but this is what he’s — this is his big victory that he wants to accomplish.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what do you accomplish by postponing the vote?

SEN. RON WYDEN: What we do is we give a chance for more people to see what’s at stake. It’s kind of like, you know, Donald Trump has consistently not paid the bills that he owed when he was in the private sector. So, a judge basically caught up with him, and that’s how we helped to block the freeze. We’re going to get the word out, just as I did when the Medicaid portals were closed down there for a few hours. What happened was, those activists and the whistleblowers got in touch with me. I put it out all across the country. The credit deserves to go to the whistleblowers who brought it to us. We get additional time. We can block these cuts, too.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Senator Ron Wyden, could you also comment on the confirmation hearing forthcoming for Tulsi Gabbard to become director of national intelligence? You’ve worked with her in the past on privacy legislation, but you’ve expressed some concerns about her potentially occupying this position. If you could elaborate?

SEN. RON WYDEN: I’d like to find out what her current positions are on matters like the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, which is a hugely important issue. At one time, she was against it. Now she seems that she may be for it. I’m also very concerned about Americans being swept up in these searches. So, we’re going to get to the bottom of what her positions actually are. And clearly, the Trump people have been lobbying her hard.

AMY GOODMAN: If you could talk more about that? Because, Senator Wyden, you are known as a leader on challenging these FISA courts. For those who aren’t so familiar — we have a global audience — explain your deep concerns, how she agreed with you as a congressmember, and then what exactly — how she’s turned around.

SEN. RON WYDEN: Well, what I think she was concerned about was law-abiding Americans getting swept up in the warrant process. And I have led that effort, and I’m sure we’ll talk about that today. But I think, on top of that, she is concerned that civil liberties are just getting the short shrift. You know, I believe that security and liberty are not mutually exclusive. You can have both. You can have your freedoms and have security. I think she’s said that in the past. The question is: Will she say it again today?

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Senator Wyden, could we also ask you about — you’ve commented on this — the fact that at Trump’s inauguration there were all of the leading tech CEOs, from Zuckerberg to Sundar Pichai and, of course, Elon Musk, who is now formally a member of Trump’s administration? You’ve done a great deal of work on tech. What are your concerns about the proximity of these tech CEOs to the Trump administration?

SEN. RON WYDEN: Well, it clearly sent a message that his real friends, his real allies, are the billionaires. Let me tell your listeners, though, I think that what Mark Zuckerberg did, toadying up to Trump here recently and saying he’d give up his fact-checkers, was just god-awful. And I think what it does is it sends a message to all the Big Tech companies: “Hey, you can do what I did, maybe line up a favor in the future with Donald Trump, and we can reconsolidate Big Media the way it was before the internet.”

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go back to our headlines, Senator Wyden, to our first story, of course, this horrendous crash, midair crash, over the Potomac between a Black Hawk helicopter and this American Airlines flight. It looks like there are absolutely no survivors. At least 30 bodies have been pulled. It’s American Airlines, the crash coming just days after the head of the Federal Aviation Administration, Mike Whitaker, stepped down. Now, this is extremely significant. FAA administrators usually serve five-year terms. Trump has not named a replacement. Whitaker announced his planned departure in December after SpaceX CEO and Trump donor Elon Musk repeatedly attacked him on social media, attacked Whitaker, saying he needs to resign. I mean, on the one hand, the power of the richest man on Earth working with Trump — and we don’t know what happened here; we cannot say why they crashed. It is so rare to have this kind of collision, horrific. But if you can comment on this?

SEN. RON WYDEN: Well, I’m certainly concerned about the Trump administration’s policies as it relates to ensuring that we have adequate personnel to prevent this. This is such a horrifying story that we have gotten this morning, the tragic loss of life. And I will tell you, there are going to be a host of questions. One of the first that I asked myself this morning is: What was that DOD helicopter doing in that particular place? And so, we’ve got to make sure that we have the adequate personnel to prevent this in the future and get to the bottom of what these decisions in terms of the Trump personnel in the last few weeks have meant.

AMY GOODMAN: We know you have to go in just about a minute. You’ve got the Tulsi Gabbard hearing coming up. But we did want to ask you about your new book, It Takes Chutzpah. And the subtitle is How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change. Many are questioning: Where is the Democratic Party today? Where is the response to the enormous, what many people would say might be the majority of people in this country, progressive base, but just not being responded to by the Democratic Party? Can you talk about what takes chutzpah, and how you think chutzpah needs to be an underpinning of the movement today?

SEN. RON WYDEN: Chutzpah is about nerve. It’s about grit. It’s about taking on long odds. And my chutzpah winners of the week are all those wonderful people that helped us get the Trump effort to block the Medicaid portals turned around. You know, when he did it, he didn’t think there would necessarily be any mobilization. We got out there early. The whistleblowers did their job. That was a tremendous victory for grassroots involvement to protect healthcare for low-income people. That’s chutzpah to do that kind of thing.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, Ron Wyden, I want to thank you for being with us, longtime Democratic senator from Oregon. His new book, It Takes Chutzpah: How to Fight Fearlessly for Progressive Change.

When we come back, we’ll get the latest from Washington after this airline carrying 64 people, many young skaters coming back from the nationals and a training camp in Wichita, collides with an Army Black Hawk helicopter near Reagan National Airport. No one is believed to have survived. We’ll speak with The Lever's David Sirota, and then we'll go to the Middle East. Stay with us.